the moderator was attempting to explain that member YamahaMan was not banned because of the content of his post (even though it was reported)...the original poster opened this can of worms and YamahaMan's response was considered legitimate...(although it was critical there was no name calling or personal attacks)...However, in formulating his response YamahaMan created multiple accounts and that was the reason for his ban...back to the topic please

 

Gary, DE is not a competition nor racing, so no racing classifications nor classes can be enforced for it, period.

AX, TT are different things and club racing is a totally different thing. Guy was about to do his first DE in a green group and he was supposed to show up in a sparco suit, piloti boots and install recaro hans buckets?
why not to tell him to install an automated fire suppression system on top of it all?

 

DÜnkleblau S

Hang in there.

My experience with PCA DE events was nothing like yours. As long as the car was in good condition and had a tech inspection it didn't matter what you bring. Mods, turbo, GT3 etc. were not important as long as you were following the rules of the track and driving within your skill level.

I completely understand your reluctance to put roll bars and harnesses in a daily driver. That makes no sense at all.

I hope this doesn't dissuade you from trying to get out onto the track. It is a blast and is the only way to safely drive the car to its (and more importantly your) limits.

Most tracks will have track days or other events put on by different groups. If you can't get things worked out with your local PCA consider trying one of the other events.

Too bad, though. I would have been pretty frustrated and put off by the whole experience as you describe it. All of the guys I have interacted with at PCA events were really helpful. Keep an open mind. Maybe things will get worked out.

Good luck.

 

Actually, that turns out not to be the case. But not because I say so. I have nothing to do with it. I just appear to be one of the few who actually read rules before I participate in something. I sampled a few weeks of threads on this forum and those of Audi and Mercedes and Astons before we decided on a Porsche, and the tone of the respective forums was part of our decision. With considerably less trouble, I also inquired into the different organizations for Porsche people before choosing PCA to join, and I did indeed read the Zone 8 rules before signing up for a DE day to see how our new Porsche behaves at speed. Call me a control freak if you like, but we find that looking ahead a little bit makes life much easier in the long run.

The short reason that emphasized text is wrong is that the car is what decides whether particular equipment is required for its use to be safe. (I'm ignoring the other obvious point that the zone organization has the power to do pretty much anything they decide, so we're really talking about what they have chosen to do. Or at least what they say in their rules.) Back to those rules, would we argue that it's only a DE day, so it doesn't matter if the service brakes aren't working? When you turn a car into a competition car, certain equipment is needed to make it safe to use even for a DE day.

Readers can stop here who already find that enough answer, but I'll explain at further length until I get tired of typing.

Since I have read those rules for DE days, let me summarize them as published by Zone 8, but before I do, let me note that only the OP said anything about a Nomex suit and other driver equipment being required. The driver's equipment (and qualifications to enter) are usually decided by the nature of the event. The safety equipment that must be installed in the car is decided by the car itself, not the event. I haven't bothered to look it up, but I'm pretty sure that Zone 8 allows a shirt-sleeve environment for drivers in DE days and even autocross events.

Now here's my practical summary of the DE rules I understood:

1. Drivers will go onto the course by run groups, assigned according to the experience of the drivers, with judgment of the Chief Driving Instructor as to a safe mix of cars.

2. Any car may be driven by multiple drivers and each driver shall be assigned a run group as described.

3. Any car to be driven on the track during our event shall be safe, as determined by demonstration that proper maintenance is being performed and is up to date and that the safety regulations are satisfied.

That last phrase means "See the safety regulations to learn what rules the car you hope to drive must satisfy" but the overview made it clear I needn't worry about anything special so long as I had a stock car with the maintenance up to date. This only bites people who don't bother to get worn brakes or tires fixed or ignore signs of wear and old age in their ordinary seat belts.

But many people do not have a completely stock car, so on their behalf we jump to the safety regulations, which are part of the competition regulations when it comes to dealing with modified cars. As I explained earlier, small modifications in the "just because I love my car" category don't amount to a hill of beans. Most cars can have those small changes and stay in bone stock. That's a category that various organizations call "Production" or "Showroom Stock" or in the case of PCA: simply "Stock". A little bit of enthusiasm still only gets you enough points to move into the next category up, called "Street Stock" in PCA. These days, after scanning a few rule books while we had this discussion, I find that a point system like the one Zone 8 uses is quite usual. The POC mentioned as an alternative club has one as well. And more stringent as a matter of fact.

I'm sure I find this easier after 35 years working in the federal government in various roles. As the OP noted with what seemed to be distress, it's also true that I've been in car clubs and competitions for even longer. (Not forty years though as he said. Forty seven. Big deal. Keep from getting killed long enough and it happens to all of us.) Reading regulations is how you know what you can do in the course of getting a job done. Whether that be winning a race or completing a project in the space program is not the point. Understand the regs. Always.

If you can't read them for yourself, you need a specialist. That's why PCA has tech specialists who do this stuff for their events. And I won't even try to enumerate all the specialties it takes to keep up with the rules in running a modern government organization of any sort. The point is that resenting the rules is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. They are what they are. Learn them and then weave your creativity into the gaps they leave.

So once again, DE days in PCA: You fit into a run group at a DE according to your personal experience. You can drive any safe car for which you can wangle the keys. Every car allowed on the track must be safe. How hard is that?

Safe is determined by reliance on the manufacturer if the car is stock. If it is modified, the organization has to create a set of rules for what combinations of equipment are permitted and which safety upgrades are required. For what it's worth, a quick review of POC rules shows they are more stringent than PCA. But that gets us to the last point: waivers when the rules don't seem relevant to a particular question.

This is human nature, not anybody's rule book. So take my opinion for what it's worth and don't try to look this bit up anywhere. Every organization involved with dangerous activities has to have rules to minimize risk. Volunteer organizations must work hard to develop those rules and enforce them when they have only unpaid hours to accomplish jobs that earn high pay in business and government. They take pride in doing their best to keep everyone as safe as the nature of the event permits.

If you treat them with the respect they deserve, you can usually get people to go out of their way to help you with anything that is in the spirit of their job. The occasional person will be an exception, but they are rare. Most people in our culture take pride in any work they do, and in a volunteer organization almost everyone does. So if you need something that is not expressly forbidden, not prohibited by the very nature of their job, then normally you can get whatever you need by calling on their expertise to show you how.

Having read those regulations, if I found that the Porsche I bought had something like a custom-flashed ECU that put it into a modified class, I would have taken the path of least resistance. I'd have called someone responsible for tech inspection. The title varies by organization, but it is the person who has accepted responsibilty for making sure that the impossible is achieved: "Only safe cars will be allowed on track during our events." To him or her, I would state my case something like this.

If the OP had said something like that after tracking down the right person, the person with authority to give the answer he wants, he wouldn't have been posting here. As a general rule from an old greybeard, you can't win against the keepers of the rules. But you can ask for help. If you ask for help the right way, you'll get it almost without fail. If you demand special treatment, you will get that too. But it won't be the treatment you want.

Suppose I said that paragraph above to the right person. Odds are forty to ten that the Chief of Technical Inspection (or whatever the title might be) would immediately tell me the circumstances that have persuaded them to allow such waivers in the past. Then we'd start working together to see if my car could be waived the same way. One in fifty would be a flat 'no' from someone who's been burned in the past by granting waivers, but nine of those last ten cases would be a puzzled but friendly pause, followed by "Hmmm. That hasn't come up yet, but let's talk about it."

Then I would be asked questions like was this car actually racing somewhere before I bought it? And where was it being used that it got such extensive changes that it falls into the modified category but no one has ever bothered with a restraint system appropriate to that level of performance? Exactly what are those mods? And so forth. Helping like that to set a precedent is a little more work, but it also has an advantage. You are not working to overcome some bad precedent created by a damn fool six years ago that no one ever plans to forget. (That's the one in fifty flat 'no' you see.) Either way, I'm working with the person who applies the rules, trying to find a way to get the instruction I want. The instruction he wants to arrange for me. That's the job he volunteered to do, so if my attitude is good, it isn't tough to get him on my side.

Since point systems are a rough way to formalize what is at bottom an intuitive evaluation by experts, we're going to get one of two situations. The first would be that I bought a car (or modified it myself) with a bunch of changes in the boulevard hot rod category. They accrue points without really turning the car into a competition car in the sense the rules contemplate. In that case, I'll get my waiver. The tech inspectors will have to be prepared to answer questions from the Chief of Safety about why a car that looks and sounds like a track special has no proper restraints, let alone a roll cage. But having been made my allies at the beginning, they will be prepared to answer. I'll get to use my own car for the DE day, not some loaner I have to treat like fine porcelain.

On the other hand, the rules are only an approximation but it's a pretty good one for most purposes. When I list the mods done to the car, and particularly when they look at them in person and possibly drive the car, the tech inspectors may find that the car in fact is a competition car in the true sense. Such cars are not safe without restraint and crush protection appropriate to their performance level. They are even less appropriate for a novice driver to use without that equipment than if an experienced competition driver were behind the wheel.

In that latter case, they will necessarily say the car cannot be used as equipped for a DE day. Going further, I'm sure a conscientious Chief of Tech Inspection would warn the novice against using that car for instruction even if the restraints are added. This one is a more subtle problem, but a real one we don't need to debate now since the question we're discussing is whether the car must have safety equipment if it is only being used in a DE day.

That question comes back to that sensible rule any organization will adopt that hopes to survive as a car club: "Only safe cars will be allowed on track during our events."

This isn't about insurance rules, although insurance companies always get involved in such discussions. It is conscientious human behavior. People who have been doing something potentially dangerous for any length of time get a sense for what works and what doesn't. At first, they pick someone and trust their judgment without a rule book. They need someone willing to say "No, damn it. You can not cut the brake line where it's leaking and pinch it off with a vise grip. Fix it or go home." [True story from an SCCA CalClub tech inspection pass round the pits.]

Eventually, one knowledgeable person becomes too informal. People want to know before they come to the event what is permissible and what will get them sent home. Then rule books get written.

Now, let's recap. The experience level of the driver determines which group he shall run in, with consideration of the car speed only to avoid putting very slow cars in among very fast ones with only novices to keep them apart. A driver can use any safe car, even sharing cars. But every car must be safe before it goes on the track.

We keep getting back to that bottom line. Now supposing the car does not have safety equipment to match its performance modifications, who can handle such a car better if a waiver is to be issued? A trained competition driver or a novice? Well, damn. Let's not mention that before I ask for my waiver, but it is a legitimate question isn't it?

The only responsible answer is that the novice is not as qualified to handle a modified car -- with or without the safety equipment being up to spec -- but on the other hand we are putting an instructor in the car. If the instructor feels the situation is getting out of control, the plug can be pulled on any lap. If I were the Chief Driving Instructor, I'd be very thoughtful about the choice of instructor for the novices planning to drive that car in any case. Without the usual safety equipment, I'd probably ask that the assigned instructor come back to me and report personally so we can discuss the decision to send one of those students out solo.

Let me emphasize once more that I have no role in Zone 8 whatsoever. I'm retired from everything now, even from having fun. Sorta. But just ot illustrate the thought process a person might follow in trying to be helpful, let me pretend for a moment that I am Chief of Tech Inspection and Chief Driving Instructor for the Podunk Porsche Club and someone just brought us this request for waiver.

In the circumstances we've been discussing, the real issue would be the final result of those vaguely described mods we've heard about. Are the modifications on this car merely ones that make it handle better and perhaps get a few more horsepower? The sort of thing many people do just for cars driven on the street? Fine, that explains why track-quality restraints and crush protection were not installed. We can issue the waiver. Those mods would be an issue if they had been done to get an advantage in club racing, but we don't care about that. This is just a DE day.

On the other hand, this is a DE day. How many of those mods actually change the nature of the car? That is, do they move beyond the goal of making a crisp-handling Carrera a little more crisp for the joy of it into the realm of competition handling traits? Well, that would be a problem if so. This is an event intended for novices to get experience. The handling of competition cars is not just more crisp than street cars. It is responsive far beyond what that word means with road cars. Competition cars respond to a dangerous extent if the driver is not trained to expect that response in all situations.

Certainly you can teach novices in such cars. People like Skip Barber do it all the time, but we aren't Skip Barber. We are not set up for that type of instruction. Both our instructors and our on-track procedures assume some variation of the good handling found in all Porsches. Even the unforgiving models of years past have been modified to be acceptable. We aren't training race drivers, just taking interested novices to that first level of performance driving skill. No waiver I'm afraid.

And in that last case, I would probably be concerned about bringing the car back even with the safety equipment installed if the drivers who wanted to use it truly were novices. We see such cars regularly at DE days (I mean PCA does, not Podunk Porsches), but usually they aren't being driven even by people who technically are novices but have significant racing experience, let alone real novices.

I'm pretty sure if it were my choice, a true novice would be taught first how to handle track speeds and other DE goals in a real road car. Then if we don't have racing clinics in addition to our DE days, I'd ask that he get training from someplace like Skip Barber before bringing a true competition car to our DE days.

Tough cookies, I know. But no one in Podunk Porsche Club suggested this guy buy a track car without first knowing how to drive one.

Final caveat. It's hard to tell through all the anger, but I don't think the OP's car falls into that last class. It actually sounds like a significantly modified road car, but only a road car when all is said and done. If that's confirmed by inspection, then I see no reason a waiver couldn't be issued for DE days.

Of course, we don't hold too many events at the mythical Podunk Porsche Club, so my opinion isn't terribly useful to the OP. Perhaps Michael Dolphin will be able to help him.

Gary

 

That is a LOT of typing. LOL

You raise some valid points re: what would be considered a competition car and the concerns you have regarding a novice driver behind the wheel of such a car during a DE day. However, I feel a compromise must be found because the alternative is someone modifying their car to a "competition" level and driving said car on the street without the benefit of DE.

Kudos to the OP for seeking out a safe way to learn about your car.

 

I would agree with most of your points (and yes i did read your whole answer ) as it is mostly a common sense.

Still, historically and by its purpose the only denominator in the DE events which was always used to separate drivers into different groups was actual driving experience. Addiing up racing car classifications with obligatory safety standards based on particular class into the mix is totally against everything DE was originally intended for. I just do not think it is right.

 

I understand that the zone 8 leaders want to ensure safety. No surprise there, and that is a good thing.

However, it seems that zone 8 rules say that if one adds coilovers and a CAI for example, the car is no longer "safe", and now racing seats and harness must be added before being allowed to participate in a DE.

I think all cars/drivers should be allowed to participate in DE, so long as the car passes tech inspection. Just because a guy lowered his car, he isn't allowed to participate? Too much rules.

 

lol @ the OP's car being called a "significantly modified road car".

 

I am usually on rennlist but had to register here to voice an opinion.

The rules sees very complex and against the spirit of a non-competitive DE. Having classes for a novice DE makes very little sense.
- What do you care about fairness or having people with similar cars running together IN A DE? For Novice groups, driver’s skills are more important. Passing is the result of a cooperation, not a competition. Having cars at different speeds, different power, etc., being passed and passing also teaches many valuable skills for the road (including respect and empathy for other drivers).
- On the contrary, by having classes, you foster the spirit of competition in a DE where it does not belong. I am not sure this really enhances safety. The biggest safety issue is the driver’s attitude which is monitored and shaped by the instructor

- In my relatively short tenure, I have run with different clubs and tracks and never seen this level of bureaucratic Kafka-inspired rules for a DE. Seems someone was having a lot of fun to make up their own custom playbook.
- I understand requiring a few more safety features (e.g. fire extinguisher) for higher run groups. But frankly for a novice driver, not sure where the risk is greater: having a lowered suspension on a regular 911 or having someone new show up with a GT2 or a Turbo S.

What the OP is describing seems very possible given the arcane rules in the document. It may have not happened exactly as he described and he may be a bit frustrated at times. He has a very fair point and expressed it in a relatively respectful manner (until attacked personally). And from the tone of some responses, his entire story seems even more possible.

What I am more surprised with is the attitude toward a DE newcomer and the tone of some the posts. I started DEs about 2 years ago so I guess I am what some people called the OP: a “newbie” (in a negative way, multiple times). I was never made felt this way by any of the PCA/NASA/BMWCCA groups I ran with. I certainly made mistakes, etiquette gaffes, and so on. But everyone has been ultra helpful and understanding. No-one had a “Gotcha – you broke rule 34B-565-4 paragraph 5b, it will cost you 5 points” attitude. No old boy network/clubbish thing going on.

Maybe he should have read the rules and the folks who made them up are entitled to these rules. But we have the right to say that we think it does not make a lot of sense and goes against the DE spirit. A good part of the DE world does not do it this way and had survived so far. Maybe you should consider practices with other similarly well run groups. I guess this region does not have any problem with attracting and retaining new members.

To the Region 8 leadership: Looks like you have a great region and tons of events going on. Congrats. You may choose not to listen to the folks here and just try to defend the rules as if the world is conspiring against the few people who made them up. Or you can choose to think it through, use this incident as a way to get even better. See how the rules could be refined/simplified and the group could be more welcoming. I hope Michael and the OP can discuss this and find a common ground.


OP, hang in there and find a more welcoming group if needed. You’ll still have fun.



FM

 

Gary, SIMSGW, or Yamahaman, whoever you are as one person - That was quite a treatise you wrote. You started with a bunch of assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming anything.

I did approach members of the club who are intimately associated with DE/TT events, in fact the person organized the AX I went to yesterday. I told them about my mods and asked if it would be a problem, they said no. I filled in the paperwork for the DE at Willow and sent it in after some confusion in understanding how to class the car. It was MY QUESTION that I totalled into "prepared" class that started all of this, 'this can't be right, can it?.' The Tech Adviser (elected, anointed, whatever, and known for being INFLEXIBLE - WAIVERS NOT GRANTED) said "your car has 10 points so without the equipment FOR THE CAR (harnesses, bar, fireextinguisher, etc)," I was not welcome without ripping out parts.

So don't paint this as me coming in here full of steam and anger off the bat. In fact, I was humble and quiet and asking what to do. Only after I found out that this Tech Adviser acted so childishly and excluded me from the event (after pressuring an approved techstation to charge me points) that it has come to this. So yes, I am pissed about it.

Most reasonable newbies would be too. My wife is so turned off she wants me to turn the 3 year family membership I bought down to a single. She says she doesn't want to be associated with an organization that treats newcomers so harshly and in such an unfriendly manner.

Now I know members of PCA are also members of POC; my very relevant question, why is my car welcome at POC without any further safety enhancements for PDS (DE), while it is not at PCA? This is silly, and if you tell me "them is the rules" or hide behind a 6 page essay, then something is not right, and I hope Michael Dolphin can straighten it out. My initial impression of the DE portion of the club is now tainted - I would like to get past it as the AX yesterday was a load of fun, and it is LOCAL.

 

SIMSGW

At this point in the current book of the month club reading I get the following:

Zone 8 would like to recognize the 'potential' of the car and the driver in their DE events. With both criteria in mind a car and driver are assigned to a run group. In that fashion the potentially faster car will have upgraded safety equipment and won't be on the tails of the slower drivers/novices. That appears to be good intention on the part of Zone 8.

What we have at my club in Zone 4 is run groups determined by driver skill. So you may well find what I mentioned previously a modified 997 turbo in with a 924 and both in a novice group. That would be 'D' in our club.

So let's put them both on the track with the 924 driver being a natural and the turbo driver being a drag racer. If the 924 starts out front on a track like Mid-Ohio with the turbo behind what I typically see is the 924 natural distancing himself from the turbo on the twisties with the turbo closing in on the back straight only to lose it again in 'madness'. This is when it is fun to be in the right seat of the turbo. I love asking the turbo guy why is it that you can't keep up with the 924. From there it's how good the communication is between the two of us and how long it takes the turbo guy to slow down and go faster.

That's our club's scenario. I gather in Zone 8 the turbo driver would be moved up a group due to 'potential'. The problem I see with this is that same 924 natural driver above may have moved himself up a run group putting himself into the same group with the turbo. The 924 will now be carrying more speed into the corners and the turbo will now have a faster rabbit in front of/wanting to pass him. I think that might lead to a bit of frustration for the turbo driver which is what you don't want.

Bottom line I'd rather have the faster/modified car with a inexperienced driver in the bottom run group working on skills and then moving himself up a group based on the merit of those skills. If the club dictates a higher level of safety equipment as the group speeds increase that's fine and everyone should know it up front.

 

Despite of all valid points you have - be ready to a lot of snobbish remarks from old PCA members. Not everybody are nice in life, but make no mistake - most people I have met within PCA, SCDA at DE, drag racing or AX - are most helpful enthusiasts who will not hesitate to help you to overcome any issues.

And there always be people, even instructors, who will not be openly friendly and will treat your existence as on obstacle on their own way to enlightment, but it would be overly childish to pay too much attention to such individuals. water under the bridge.

like you were told before - you got zone 8 rep helping you to resolve this now. if you have not antagonized whole DE board against yourself during this crusade - try to attend some of PCA DEs in that zone, but if I were you I would send them to hell with their rules and tried different venues which there are plenty around.

 

Actually, I think a fair amount of us just wish we would get the performance gains a CAI and flash would provide to be considered "competition". LOL

 

Professor Gary W. Sims, Major, USAF (ret). Why is that important?

I have no idea who might be your "Yamahaman". I'm just an old retired geezer who remembers how to read and do arithmetic. Since it isn't being noticed, let me say one more time: I have nothing to do with Zone 8 except living in their part of the country which gave me an occasion to read their rules before running a DE last year.

Gary

 

Honestly, Alan, one more time: I have no idea what Zone 8 wants or doesn't want. Everything I said about Zone 8 was based on their rule book and my own limited experience of one DE day. The rest of that -- and I noted when I began speaking from my own experience -- is based on all the other clubs I've been in after nearly half a century as an enthusiast.

I don't think that your Zone 4 is doing anything different from what I saw that one afternoon. Set aside the safety equipment issue for a minute. The run groups have nothing to do with the competition classes of the cars. It looked to me that the Chief Driving Instructor and his instructors merely reviewed the driver's experience using the entry form and interviews at the drivers meeting the night before. Then they took into account the speed of the car when driven by someone of that experience.

A friend and I are both new to Porsches and the club, but we each have a Carrera S. By the rules, we both are novices and must have instructors when the day begins. He is a true novice in that he's never even driven sports cars before buying his S, while I used to race Formula Ford and other full race cars. Since it's been more than five years since I was on a track, the rules are right to treat me as a novice, but the Chief Driving Instructor certainly knew I was going to be faster than my friend with essentially the same car. I have no idea how they title their run groups, but he ended up in what I personally would call "slow novice". I was put in a group with a Lambo, a couple of Corvettes, a whole lot of recent 911's, a 914 and a 924 with drivers that surely must have been like myself: novices by technical status only. It was as you say. The 914 was fully race-prepared and I suppose the driver was a wife or son of one of the competition drivers from the zone. It was well driven and damned fast in the twisty bits, but the rest of us blew by it at the two straights with passing zones. The 924 was similar.

I'd say the CDI did a good job choosing a safe mix. We did a lot of passing, but no one in our group was so overwhelmed by the newness of track driving as to do anything unsafe when mixing it up with cars of such radically different speeds on different parts of the track. Apparently, the "slow novice" group worked well also because my friend had a great time and came away with much more confidence in his car.

About that safety equipment... I didn't see anything in the Zone 8 rules that suggests they require more safety equipment on faster cars and I've never been in a club that did that insofar as I can remember. What matters is not the car class, but the category which has to do with the number of modifications from the factory's original design. Again, I have no idea what Zone 8 thinks about this, but I do know why we did it that way in my earlier clubs. As cars are modified away from the original design, the question of safety arises for two reasons. First, we can't be sure the people who made the mod don't have their collective heads up their aspirations. It's only common sense to add some protection for the driver for the not unlikely event that something unexpected happens because of these aftermarket changes. Second, a lot of those changes are very well engineered. They work just fine, but that means the car is performing far beyond the level at which the factory seats and restraints were intended to hold the driver. To drive safely when g-loads reach above one g regularly, you must have better restraints.

Some of those mods also create car behavior that can interfere with a true novice learning how to drive fast, so I don't recommend novices begin with such a car. But for those who do, the ability to control the car depends on being restrained properly.

Again, none of that is Zone 8 reasoning. I have nothing to do with Zone 8 organization and I am one of the newest members of my own region. It is simply the advice of a very old pilot, race car driver, and experienced engineer. So it's probably overconservative, but one way or another, it is only my advice. It has nothing to do with Zone 8.

Gary