NEW 991tt and ttS laps Nurburgring under 7:30
#46
08-19-2013 | 07:30 PM
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i think the underlying real question here is this, is the GT3 with lighter weight and more responsive engine faster or slower than a turbo which is heavier but has more HP, I wonder with equal tires which car will be faster with the same driver, I guess we have to wait for a Sport Auto magazine test
#47
08-20-2013 | 08:19 AM
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I believe that Porsche is keeping the turbo slow-ish on purpose. Here are some food for thought points:
1-They make almost the same power with the turbos as with the GT3. That alone makes no sense. The same engine boosted to 1.4bar should be able to make tons more power than the non-boosted engine. Just look what an aftermarket tune do to these cars! Porsche lets a lot of power on the table.
2-They put all-season tires on the Turbo and R-compound on the GT3. It makes sense in a way, because the GT3 is the "track" car. But they could put r-compound tires on the TurboS or at least give it the option. As many said, that would make a huge difference.
3-With a seven speed PDK, why not shorten the gearing a bit? Longer gears make the car accelerate a bit slower.
4-Chassis setting is soft-ish. With more power, shorter gearing and r-compound tires, the Turbo could really use more track oriented settings.
If you put 1-2-3-4 together, you'd have one hell of a Turbo. But again, the goal of the turbo is to be a fast GT, not the fastest track car. However, if they wanted, they could make a Turbo RS and it could be brilliant. It might even beat the mighty GTR.
As long as the Porsche flagship is the GT3, Porsche will be slower than the competition. It is just so easy for Nissan to turn up the boost on the GTR. The day Porsche decides it's over and that they decide to regain the 'ring crown, they will need the Turbo and more power, and better tires, and better gearing and better chassis settings.
If they really wanted to set a time, they'd also use real aerodynamcis like the late Viper ACR (huge splitter, flat bottom, diffuser, large wing mounted high). Or maybe they could nothing because who cares that some car, driven by some guy, on some day is a few seconds faster?
1-They make almost the same power with the turbos as with the GT3. That alone makes no sense. The same engine boosted to 1.4bar should be able to make tons more power than the non-boosted engine. Just look what an aftermarket tune do to these cars! Porsche lets a lot of power on the table.
2-They put all-season tires on the Turbo and R-compound on the GT3. It makes sense in a way, because the GT3 is the "track" car. But they could put r-compound tires on the TurboS or at least give it the option. As many said, that would make a huge difference.
3-With a seven speed PDK, why not shorten the gearing a bit? Longer gears make the car accelerate a bit slower.
4-Chassis setting is soft-ish. With more power, shorter gearing and r-compound tires, the Turbo could really use more track oriented settings.
If you put 1-2-3-4 together, you'd have one hell of a Turbo. But again, the goal of the turbo is to be a fast GT, not the fastest track car. However, if they wanted, they could make a Turbo RS and it could be brilliant. It might even beat the mighty GTR.
As long as the Porsche flagship is the GT3, Porsche will be slower than the competition. It is just so easy for Nissan to turn up the boost on the GTR. The day Porsche decides it's over and that they decide to regain the 'ring crown, they will need the Turbo and more power, and better tires, and better gearing and better chassis settings.
If they really wanted to set a time, they'd also use real aerodynamcis like the late Viper ACR (huge splitter, flat bottom, diffuser, large wing mounted high). Or maybe they could nothing because who cares that some car, driven by some guy, on some day is a few seconds faster?
#48
08-20-2013 | 12:06 PM
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The mission is entirely different. They already have the GT2 RS. Also the Turbo doesn't need a lot more power. The delivery is different as well. Lastly, the TT may already have the most aggressive gearing of any performance car. 60mph in 3rd gear. Many supercars hit 60 in 1st...
The Turbo could be much more than it is. Porsche just decided it that way. I'd really like if some reputable magazine with a pro driver could test a Turbo against a GT3 with identical, brakes, tires and suspension. Then test it again with an off the shelf re-flash. I'd bet the Turbo would murder the GT3, but I've been wrong before.
My 996tt 2nd gear goes to about 125kmh and 3rd is close to 170kmh. A long 1st gear is great to limit wheelspin that affects high powered rwd cars. With its AWD and now 7-sp PDK, the Turbo could use smaller gearing to improve its acceleration.
#49
08-20-2013 | 12:40 PM
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I think at some point there is a trade-off of not being gear long enough. Shorter gear ratio doesn't always equate to faster acceleration. Of course constructors want to maximize use of the torque curve. Of course we'd want to be in that curve as much as possible (but not have a 28 gear transmission).
I have my own issues regarding Porsche's latest marketing (until I see a Cayman Turbo), but I do not follow your logic in this topic. I've read your posts, but do not agree, based on my understanding. Could you please reiterate?
#50
08-20-2013 | 01:10 PM
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Wait - so you're suggesting that the gears in the PDK are too small?
I think at some point there is a trade-off of not being gear long enough. Shorter gear ratio doesn't always equate to faster acceleration. Of course constructors want to maximize use of the torque curve. Of course we'd want to be in that curve as much as possible (but not have a 28 gear transmission).
I have my own issues regarding Porsche's latest marketing (until I see a Cayman Turbo), but I do not follow your logic in this topic. I've read your posts, but do not agree, based on my understanding. Could you please reiterate?
I think at some point there is a trade-off of not being gear long enough. Shorter gear ratio doesn't always equate to faster acceleration. Of course constructors want to maximize use of the torque curve. Of course we'd want to be in that curve as much as possible (but not have a 28 gear transmission).
I have my own issues regarding Porsche's latest marketing (until I see a Cayman Turbo), but I do not follow your logic in this topic. I've read your posts, but do not agree, based on my understanding. Could you please reiterate?
My feeling is if Porsche wanted to make the Turbo the fastest Nurburgring car they can, they would make a whole bunch of decisions different. Gearing is just one part of that. Power is another.
The real reason might just be that they don't want to steal the thunder from the GT2. I have no idea. But why couldn't the turbo also get the 620hp tune?
Also how come the GTR, that is heavier, less powerful, has narrower tires, the engine in front can pull sub 3sec 0-60mph while the Turbo can't? Again, something desn't add up here. Is it the launch control that's not agressive enough? Is it the gearing that's wrong? I don't know and obviously don't have the ressource to investigate. But the Turbo and TurboS should be quicker to 60mph.
I re-read what I wrote and it just seems like I'm shooting in all directions. However, my point is just that Porsche has made its decision, and the Turbo is the GT car. The GT3 is the track car. If they wanted to make the Turbo the track car, they would make different choices and that car would be hell fast.
More food for thought: what will Porsche do with the GT3 when the competition can add more pistons/displacement to their cars? They are basically stuck with the Flat-6 and there's a limit to how big they can take this engine. What will they do for future GT3 cars? Make a flat-8? Give it a turbo? Raise the revs to 10,000rpm? There will be a point where the GT3 n/a flat-6 won't have enough grunt to compete. I feel we're pretty close to that right now. Maybe the future is KERS power. It'll be interesting to watch what Porsche does. But it'd be so easy for Porsche to RS the Turbo.
#51
08-20-2013 | 01:50 PM
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Well I admit I haven't look into the gear ratios of the PDK. I'm pretty sure that Porsche has put some long gear in there to suit the nature of the GT car they went with the Turbo. But maybe not, I'd be curious to see how it is geared. This is me assuming the GT3 will have shorter rations than the Turbo.
My feeling is if Porsche wanted to make the Turbo the fastest Nurburgring car they can, they would make a whole bunch of decisions different. Gearing is just one part of that. Power is another.
The real reason might just be that they don't want to steal the thunder from the GT2. I have no idea. But why couldn't the turbo also get the 620hp tune?
Also how come the GTR, that is heavier, less powerful, has narrower tires, the engine in front can pull sub 3sec 0-60mph while the Turbo can't? Again, something desn't add up here. Is it the launch control that's not agressive enough? Is it the gearing that's wrong? I don't know and obviously don't have the ressource to investigate. But the Turbo and TurboS should be quicker to 60mph.
I re-read what I wrote and it just seems like I'm shooting in all directions. However, my point is just that Porsche has made its decision, and the Turbo is the GT car. The GT3 is the track car. If they wanted to make the Turbo the track car, they would make different choices and that car would be hell fast.
More food for thought: what will Porsche do with the GT3 when the competition can add more pistons/displacement to their cars? They are basically stuck with the Flat-6 and there's a limit to how big they can take this engine. What will they do for future GT3 cars? Make a flat-8? Give it a turbo? Raise the revs to 10,000rpm? There will be a point where the GT3 n/a flat-6 won't have enough grunt to compete. I feel we're pretty close to that right now. Maybe the future is KERS power. It'll be interesting to watch what Porsche does. But it'd be so easy for Porsche to RS the Turbo.
My feeling is if Porsche wanted to make the Turbo the fastest Nurburgring car they can, they would make a whole bunch of decisions different. Gearing is just one part of that. Power is another.
The real reason might just be that they don't want to steal the thunder from the GT2. I have no idea. But why couldn't the turbo also get the 620hp tune?
Also how come the GTR, that is heavier, less powerful, has narrower tires, the engine in front can pull sub 3sec 0-60mph while the Turbo can't? Again, something desn't add up here. Is it the launch control that's not agressive enough? Is it the gearing that's wrong? I don't know and obviously don't have the ressource to investigate. But the Turbo and TurboS should be quicker to 60mph.
I re-read what I wrote and it just seems like I'm shooting in all directions. However, my point is just that Porsche has made its decision, and the Turbo is the GT car. The GT3 is the track car. If they wanted to make the Turbo the track car, they would make different choices and that car would be hell fast.
More food for thought: what will Porsche do with the GT3 when the competition can add more pistons/displacement to their cars? They are basically stuck with the Flat-6 and there's a limit to how big they can take this engine. What will they do for future GT3 cars? Make a flat-8? Give it a turbo? Raise the revs to 10,000rpm? There will be a point where the GT3 n/a flat-6 won't have enough grunt to compete. I feel we're pretty close to that right now. Maybe the future is KERS power. It'll be interesting to watch what Porsche does. But it'd be so easy for Porsche to RS the Turbo.
#52
08-20-2013 | 02:09 PM
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Autoweek just reported 3.1sec for the TurboS. That seems a bit conservative. But this pretty much is braggin rights. I'm not sure a 2,9sec vs 3.1sec really is that important for anyone besides winning the argument that car X is faster to 60mph than car y. But still, it'd be fun for Porsche to be able to brag the fastest 0-60mph for a production car.
#53
08-20-2013 | 04:45 PM
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11. Nissan GT-R 7:19.10 169 '12 550 / 1736 Toshio Suzuki
12. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 7:19.63 169 '08 647 / 1530 Jim Mero
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 7:22.68 168 '11 512 / 1394 Jim Mero
14. Gumpert Apollo Sport 7:24.00 167 '07 700 / 1200
15. Maserati MC12 7:24.29 167 '04 632 / 1335 Marc Basseng
16. Pagani Zonda F Clubsport 7:24.65 167 '05 650 / 1230 Marc Basseng
17. Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 7:25.00 167 '11 700 / 1720 Horst von Saurma
18. KTM X-Bow R 7:25.00 167 '11 304 / 855 Christopher Haase
19. Ferrari Enzo 7:25.21 167 '02 660 / 1365 Marc Basseng
20. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) 7:26.00 166 '13 560 / 1605
21. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 7:27.00 166 '11 500 / 1360
22. Ferrari 458 Italia 7:28.00 166 '09 570 / 1485
23. McLaren MP4-12C 7:28.00 166 '10 600 / 1434 Horst von Saurma
24. Porsche Carrera GT 7:28.71 165 '03 612 / 1380 Marc Basseng
25. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) 7:29.00 165 '13 520 / 1595
26. Mercedes SLS AMG GT 7:30.00 165 '12 591 / 1620
27. Porsche 911 GT2 7:31.00 164 '07 530 / 1440 Walter Rohrl
28. Porsche 911 Turbo S 7:32.00 164 '10 530 / 1585 Walter Rohrl
29. Pagani Zonda F 7:33.00 164 '05 602 / 1371
30. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:33.00 164 '10 450 / 1400
12. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 7:19.63 169 '08 647 / 1530 Jim Mero
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 7:22.68 168 '11 512 / 1394 Jim Mero
14. Gumpert Apollo Sport 7:24.00 167 '07 700 / 1200
15. Maserati MC12 7:24.29 167 '04 632 / 1335 Marc Basseng
16. Pagani Zonda F Clubsport 7:24.65 167 '05 650 / 1230 Marc Basseng
17. Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 7:25.00 167 '11 700 / 1720 Horst von Saurma
18. KTM X-Bow R 7:25.00 167 '11 304 / 855 Christopher Haase
19. Ferrari Enzo 7:25.21 167 '02 660 / 1365 Marc Basseng
20. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) 7:26.00 166 '13 560 / 1605
21. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 7:27.00 166 '11 500 / 1360
22. Ferrari 458 Italia 7:28.00 166 '09 570 / 1485
23. McLaren MP4-12C 7:28.00 166 '10 600 / 1434 Horst von Saurma
24. Porsche Carrera GT 7:28.71 165 '03 612 / 1380 Marc Basseng
25. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) 7:29.00 165 '13 520 / 1595
26. Mercedes SLS AMG GT 7:30.00 165 '12 591 / 1620
27. Porsche 911 GT2 7:31.00 164 '07 530 / 1440 Walter Rohrl
28. Porsche 911 Turbo S 7:32.00 164 '10 530 / 1585 Walter Rohrl
29. Pagani Zonda F 7:33.00 164 '05 602 / 1371
30. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:33.00 164 '10 450 / 1400
#54
08-20-2013 | 05:46 PM
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Autoweek just reported 3.1sec for the TurboS. That seems a bit conservative. But this pretty much is braggin rights. I'm not sure a 2,9sec vs 3.1sec really is that important for anyone besides winning the argument that car X is faster to 60mph than car y. But still, it'd be fun for Porsche to be able to brag the fastest 0-60mph for a production car.
IF Nissan gets radical with the GT-R with the rumored 2.0 0-60, Porsche may not even bother responding with a similar performing product.
Last edited by Deuuuce; 08-20-2013 at 05:50 PM.
#55
08-20-2013 | 07:10 PM
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Please research 997 PDK tests. ALL are under 3.0 seconds. One of the quickest production cars produced. A GT3, due to RWD, would suffer from excessive wheel spin with identical gearing and drivability would suffer greatly.
IF Nissan gets radical with the GT-R with the rumored 2.0 0-60, Porsche may not even bother responding with a similar performing product.
IF Nissan gets radical with the GT-R with the rumored 2.0 0-60, Porsche may not even bother responding with a similar performing product.
#57
08-20-2013 | 10:45 PM
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Which is probably a quote of the Porsche media release, always conservative. I wonder if that is non-launch control too.
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