OMG here we go again with the GTR discussion. Frankly I rarely see them and when I do I am shocked at what an eye soar they are regardless of how "fast" they are; don't get me started on their reliability. Nissan does not compete with Porsche and neither does the GTR. I would be shocked to see a buyer going between dealerships comparing a 911 and GTR!?

As far as I am concerned the only benchmark Porsche had to beat was/is themselves.

 

Nissan, as a brand, may be beneath you... But apparently not to the rest of the world (every single car magazine, just about every other forum on the planet, children who can't even drive yet, and people who have driven for 50+ yrs).

And if you would be shocked to see a buyer going between dealerships comparing a 911 and GT-R, I'm surprised you're still alive. It has happened so many times, now, I've lost the will to count.

Sometimes the person chooses the Porsche, sometimes the Nissan.

The point that was raised, is that based on performance levels, Porsche needs to stay with the competition (as they've always done, usually by surpassing the competition in certain areas). For the most part, they've set (and raised by themselves) the bar. If performance is irrelevant to you, then so be it. It matters to a lot of people (including the members who raised these points).

 

I agree with all your points. I think it is important to remember that people who can afford 911s and GTRs are diverse. We may all have strong trends and striking similiarities, but I would not surprised if 911 owners defect. How many is the real question imho.

 

Good points, I did not mean any disrespect to you or Nissan - they make great cars. Yes I am alive and still don't see anyone cross shopping a new 911 Turbo and GTR.

 

No worries... I was not offended at all. I am one of those who was contemplating a 997TT (along with an R8, Vantage, ZR-1, F360, etc...). Everybody has their own criteria, and the GT-R met the most for me.

I know of 15 people (personally) who have done the exact same thing, and many others through association (like here on 6speed).

 

For me, it's not that a Nissan is "beneath me"- far from it. It's about what a person desires. Ok, so the GTR is revolutionary for Nissan. Nissan has made some great, reliable, std automobiles. But there is more to the equation than just numbers.

What moves you? How does the car make you feel? Though the GTR is a beast in its own right; it's not a Porsche and it never will be. For me, at $80k+ for a GTR, a Porsche is just a tad more, and I'd rather have the Porsche. I'd wanted a Porsche since I sat in one as a kid in 1970 at a dealership. There is the whole heritage, history and refinement that comes with the marque. It is one of the, if not THE iconic sports-car.

So Japan has created two real hotrods- both Lexus and Nissan. I'd be more likely to spend the $$ on a Lexus LFA, before I would the Nissan that is a fraction of the LFA's price; but, in all this, I'd much rather have a 911 variant.

YMMV.

 

I think you guys missed my point. I bought a new 03 996TT X50 for $138K. My 07 997TT was $151K. A new 2013 991TT will be more still. The GTR while an awesome car and on the level of the 997TT performance wise, isn't even a remote possibility for me as a purchase. New TT buyers like me who are the backbone of Porsche NA obviously love the marque, not only for how it makes us feel, but also because we know when we drop the hammer that we are nobodies ***** at a stoplight. The problem for Porsche isn't just HP or 0-60 / 1/4 mile figures, but figuring out how not to lose me as a customer to either Ferrari or Lambo, etc. For the record, I don't know anybody that ever chose a new GTR over a new TT. Most new TT purchasers want some level of customization capability. While the GTR can play well in the street or track, how many exterior color choices exist ? Paint to sample ? Carbon options ? Natural wood options ? The list goes on and on and have nothing to do with performance. Anyway, I'm not giving up the ship with the 991TT as I believe Porsche is in a unique position to capitalize on the largest band of daily supercar owners in the world. For the guy that said the GTR beats down a F458 - are you kidding me or what ? The point of this exercise is that NOBODY would choose a GTR, or TT for that matter, over the F458. Would you ? As a new model, the 991TT will have to compete with the GTR, ZR1, F458 and Gallardo, to mention a few. The issue is price points, nothing more and nothing less. The question becomes what would you rather have a year from now, a new $175K 2013 991TT or a used $200K F458 ? But thats just me.

 

^ I chose a GTR over a Turbo

 

The GTR has a heritage as long as the 911.

 

The skylines were built by Datsun already in the 50s, so that is true, but I believe the gt-r story is quite new. I also dont see anyone who is looking at a 911tt going for a Nissan gt-r. Its like saying, I was going to buy a Bentley, but then noticed that the VW Phaeton offers the same space and engines for less money. Common, its all about the money. However wonderful the gtr is and I have friends who own these, it is still a very basic car, with a metal wire holding the hood open, and a cheap plastic interior, it has nothing to do with luxury. Porsche is a luxury sports car manufacturer, where the 911tt is just one of a sporty lineup. Nissan makes affordable family cars like the Micra and Juke, and an affordable sportscar, the GTR. The GTR is a car that makes more people now go 911tt fast for less money. Would I ever buy the GTR that I admire and like a lot, no. Never would I pay 230000 us dollars, for a Nissan. Rather take a used Porsche anyday. No disredpect meant to anyone, just my thoughts.

 

agreed, Porsche stands for status and class.
and apart from the reliability that´s mainly the reason why people are willing to pay much more.
The GT-R is a hell of a performance car but even an R8 symbolizes more status and class.
That´s why Audi can charge a lot more for it even if it is slower.

 

I'm guessing that guy is me, and if you read my post again you will see that I simply made a point about how everyone is so hung up on the hp number instead of real world performance.
(i.e the 458 should be faster than the GTR if you only read the stats page in the manual, but in the real world it isn't.)

And since you said that Porsche must keep up in the hp race or else you will jump ship, and you seem to love Porche and have had several 911 Turbos, you are the perfect canditate for this debate.

So you wouldn't buy it because other cars, who might end up being slower than the Porsche, has more hp?..

But why is it better if:
(1) the 991 weighs the same or more than the 997, has the same driveline and 50-60hp more

vs

(2) it being 200lb lighter and having some trick suspension, gearbox etc and having the same amount of hp?

My view is that Nr2 is better in every way, except in the pub when you're talking to your mates. Or when you discuss hp on the internet...
I guess you disagree.

Would you not buy the 991TT over some other car if the TT ends up having 40hp less than said car and is .3 sec slower to 60mph?
How often do you do standing starts at the red light, and is .3 sec that important when you do that?
Is the number next to the HP column in the manual more important to you than looks, heritage, handling, sound, comfort, real world performance etc etc etc etc???

For example, if I was cross shopping the 458 and the Mclaren mp4 and the Mclaren had 100hp more than the 458 and was 20sec faster on the Ring, I would take the 458 every single day of the week. There's more to a car than it's stats..

 

Zlaatan,

I will buy a 2013 991TT even if it is not THE fastest car at its pricepoint or if it doesn't have the best power/weight ratio. However, I will not be buying a 2013 991TT if it isn't competitive with all of the cars you mentioned. I can't argue with your point that HP alone does not make a good performer. If I agreed I wouldn't be a TT owner - I'd own a ZR1 or Viper. While #'s never tell the whole story, I think it is absolutely critical that Porsche take the lead in producing a competitive car with Ferrari and Lambo. When the 458 and Gallardo produce 570-580 HP why shouldn't Porsche ? To say that #'s are literally irrelevant seems disingenuous.
When I had my 03 X50 I felt like I ruled the road "box stock" (ie. no mods). With my 07 I lost that feeling a bit vs. the F430. I want that feeling back again. I want the feeling that, even though she is my DD, I rule the road. While I don't expect to beat a Bugatti Veyron, I do expect my steed to hold her own. The mere fact that the GTR is competitive with the 997TT demonstrates my point. I want the next TT to surpass the GTR and all comers - including the 458 and McClaren. Why is it that you can't feel your cars emotion and also be one of the fastest rides out there ?

 

^^ I do see what you mean and I totally understand this. I think you just wrote it in a different way in your first couple of posts.
The numbers do matter for that "hold my own" feeling that you describe, I get that.

But for some, they seem to be the be all, end all of everything a car is about. That was what I thought you were on about as well.

 

If you're opinion of 'rule' the road is acceleration, a TTs does that today. Not much this side of a Bugatti beats it at stoplight. If it's track, a GT3RS 4.0 or GT2RS is that. Both quicker than a 458 in their respective environment. Still, I would likely pick the 458.