Great conversation. I am actually looking forward to a TT M3. Next to my 996T my next favorite cars were E46 M3, RFD3S Rx7 and 1st gen Miata. Not that I would trade my real TT for an M3. One thing to remember is that Porsche will always have the handling advantage. It's simply not expected to straddle the lines of everyday practicality like an M3 is.. also, no matter what the rear engine layout will never be surpassed in putting power down.

Yes, we all know and love Porsche because in the end, the rest are all pretenders. Yes, I will pay extra for the hyper durable GT1 motor (or whatever it is that has replaced it lately). But I do question that Porsche does not need to wring us $10,000-15,000 a pop for each successive bump in displacement. I also question the $180,000 sticker on a "normal' turbo. For the last 15 years that has been GT2 money! Where an how did the TT make the Jump from $120K to $180k?

One more topic: PDK. It is fast becoming a MUST have! As enthusiasts we hate giving up the control and fun of stick, but here is technology that cuts a full second from 0-60 times. If there was an option that made all "older" Porsches less desirable it has to be PDK. Agreed? Of course for us MOD addicts PDK also limits the total power we can expect... at least today.

 

I would agree the 911 atmo is a very sweet package and in ways more usable and satisfying as a DD than a Turbo/Gt3 etc. The 911 carrera can often have you tugging on its leash but the turbo requires constant restraint..... so frustrating yet so addictive.

Lets face it. Acceptably safe performance limits no longer exist in many cars today. When you look at the quantity of affordable 6, 5 and sub 5 second cars there are on the road these days, unless your 911 possesses very serious off line and in gear acceleration you can be put in your place by the following: BMW M1 or 1 M (whatever), Audi TTrs, M3, WRX, Evo etc. And then there are modded cars of lesser standing again....GTI and R32T etc etc etc. 911 carrera is an awesome package and formidable in its own right however be careful who you take on ....or you may find yourself owning the rear end of a parked parked car.....or worse... I think the biggest challenge for Porsche is eventually losing a lot of it loyal customers who have become frustrated paying big entry $ only to find a nasty exit surprise as well, to other brands with a lesser $ impact at both ends of the scale. Frankly, Porsche needs to be reducing the purchase price on its newer models whilst offering superior standard equipment over its lesser priced rivals. And in a pretty big way. The story that price increases protect the values of passing models doesn't hold water any more.

 

1)Agree Porsche is on a higher level. Its hard to compare an M3 with a PT but the 997/991 atmos are virtually on the same playing field (model for model) excepting the purchase price unfortunately. I think the new M3 turbo is going to have some serious in gear shove with torques touted of @500 or more . That spells trouble for any atmo Carrera owner....PDK or otherwise.

2) Haha..so true,....yes but today it's the others calling us P owners pretenders and worse . Usually based on performance numbers vs dollars paid tho. Indeed a very thin argument at best but still....the poor resale $ don't help the argument why you paid so much new to begin with.

3) PDK is definitely part of todays performance package.....but i personally will be resisting that, sacrificing those few tenths. Each to his own though even though PDK and DCT is very slick and techy.

 

Ahem... uhh, the price of an attempted hostile takeover of VAG by Porsche, passed-on to the customer??

 

If one pushes back to the most recent of "good old days" the 993 Turbo was a standout in its class . I point at 1996 because in order to get high level performance the field of cars to choose from was less back then. Much has changed over time.

Production numbers have varied so greatly that its hard to pin a figure to establish cause and effect. For instance 2007 had a much higher volume of Turbos and no Cabs . 2009 had more normally aspirated 997/997S cars than 2010 and 2011 seemed to be the year of special editions in such volumes . Also the 997.1 Gt3 was very limited but the 997.2 Gt3 and gt3RS were not .

It's also hard to quote a specific market price as an example since selling prices have shown volatilty . Thus one moment in time might reveal different results over another .

I am not seeing a 200K purchase cut in half to 100K unless that car has some type of justification to the low price .

 

I color coded portions of your post in black where I strongly agreed and in red where I strongly disagreed .

First the disagreement -

1) Please show me even one "110K" 5 year old car selling in the 40's or 50's . Even the most expensive 05 launch 997S with ceramics was just under 100K MSRP.

2) I am confused .. When your post compares the price of a 996tt and 997tt to a Ferrari or a lambo you view it as a bargain . Yet when you compare it to a GtR or an M3 TT you pose a question of doubt.
I view the Porsche 996 and 997tt as being priced smack in between . There are a lot of used cars and even some new cars which are very fast (Gtr, CtsV, Z06. Zr1, Shelby, M3, 1M ) at all different price levels . Some of thse cars are new to the market and even the omes which aren't have increased as well.

So is it really a bargain ?

3) A new 996tt in 2002.03,04 MSRP was in the 120's . In order to see "50-60" percent a variety of factors might be reason and one may even have to push back more than 8 years ( if the car is pristine ) to see that figure .
In fact I just searched auto trader to randomly see .. 2004 996 Turbos with 15K miles or less are asking in the 70's . 03 cars in the 60's . That's a 9 year old car still holding value even though the 996 was generally somewhat controversial in its styling and engine change following the 993 (which BTW .. you omitted).

Now the agreement --

1) I agree that in some cases Porsche overproduced and in those instances the production numbers creamed residuals . I can cite specific examples (IE the 09 launch 997/997S cars) and list several . However my view does not apply to all of the cars made in one time frame .

2) I agree that cars like the Gtr (to name one) are respectable contenders in a price driven market with a larger field than it once was.

3) I agree that even a base Carerra offers a lot of quality and perfiormance .

 

Ok larry, you make some valid points re 993. The field was certainly narrower in performance offerings back then and 993tt was indeed a stand out in that era if i recall correctly. But then 996 broke covers as the new 911 and the game changed forever. There were too many 911's getting into the traffic and there were also a number of strong and cheaper rivals beginning to steadily appear. It was at that point the 911 began losing its exclusivity. Then, shortly after 997 came out the market quickly fell out of love with the 996 shape! I took a bigger bath on my 996 than i ever expected given the higher purchase price of that car.... unlike the 993. The 993 proved a very nice car to own new on paper....not so the 996. There became an abundance of used 996's to choose from and imo was the turning point for resale values of the 911. Like 996, 997 also came with a higher price tag than ever before but also demonstrated similar poor resale when i moved my 997S, and it was very low K's and immaculate, good options etc! It seemed the 993 was the end of the fun there. I shudder to think what my 997tt will be worth when 991tt hits the showrooms....a scary thought indeed. As i indicated in another thread...450k to 200 in 4 years is not unrealistic to anticipate. Maybe it's not quite so dramatic stateside USA where the new price was 150 for a TT and you can see 80 to 90's for a good clean .1tt car 3 to 4 years old. But i understand the .2tts your way is now @200K new? I wonder if it'll be worth any more than 80 to 90 when the new 991 tt hits the deck? My money is on it not. I hope i'm wrong.

 

I think a lot of the price discussion is really an inflation discussion. The weak dollar has caused vehicles of all kinds to become crazy expensive in price. Even relatively normal ehicles are seeing their price increase by significant amounts, in many cases 25% or more.

Part of it is because the car rags are berating anyone who doesn't use their beloved soft touch vinyl, and consumers are demanding nicer and more feature packed interiors. Domestics are also grappling with labor issues that threaten to drag them down after a few years of recovery. But the main underlying issue is that your dollar isn't worth as much as it was a few years ago.

It's definitely true that the sports car field has changed a lot since the mid 90s. At that time, you had the choice between something Italian that would leak in the rain, American cars that were essentially just brutes, or he NSX which was a great car but not on the same level. Now even basic sports cars can get very close to supercar performance, and supercars are a lot better everyday cars. People are less willing to deal with "trade-offs" now. Heck, now you can have a supercar with an adjustable suspension that with a few button presses can go from autobahn cruiser to comfortable DD to track monster.

PDK and other DSG transmissions are the future. They shift faster and more reliably than any person ever could. I'm not surprise that Porsche is taking a "we will build them" stance, as they're very much a heritage and connection brand. But the head of BMW's M Division has said that he doesn't see them being able to keep offering manuals for the US (as they're really the only place they sell), and sort of indicated this M5 may be the last to offer it, and the next gen will likely be DSG only.

 

Perhaps it's their new volume targets that brings a different demographic than the past, or the weak U.S. economy which brings the prices sky high(even if less lofty than some other countries) that bring out these new questions.
But when I favorably considered a 911 (997.1S Cab in fact) there were pluses, minuses and neutrals:
+ steering feel - the best in any car I've driven
+ brake feel - the best; same for clutch/shifter
+ visibility and sightlines - unlike any other supercar

- rear-engine design - the germans have done fantastic work to defy physics but it makes for a strange and overcontrolled ride
- pricey - but nothing close in price is as satisfied
- rear design constrains engine power - location, weight, balance
- out of date electronics which I mostly don't miss because I really don't want a fly-by-wire GTR video game in my ****pit

0 (or neutral) - exploitable power is excellent, but less that a current 430/458 or the like; or even a Z06/LS7 or SR1/LS9

Despite the work that has gone in to the 911's, the fundamental drawback of the 911 design makes more power just more challenging. Adding a lot more power to the Cayman would be far more interesting. Maybe some day.

 

How mad can you go with power? With the current laws getting tougher and tougher I mean the whole thing is becoming silly. In 996/7tt you are seconds from losing your licence, jail time and in some countries a confiscated car. I mean honestly what is the point of sitting in a 600/700/800 bhp car playing the game of luck? I think Porsche worked this out and is going down the design way with minimal power increase. Also the greener future pressures dictate less carbooxides per kilometre. This is why PDK's and such were introduced; prescribing to the moto; if we can't do it with horses let's make it up with nano second shifts. For them it is the responsible thing to do. Where this leaves the hardcore supercars is anybodies guess.

 

Sad but true. Supercars can only have a fraction of their capability utilized on the roads today.