991 Pricing Ridiculous...
#106
01-27-2012, 07:55 AM
I don't disagree that Porsche is going in a direction which supports their business interest, nor do I fault them for that. But it does seem odd to change the steering in a way that could diminish enjoyment for a minimal gain in efficiency.
As far as road vs track, the point is that a car will ideally be both fun and capable in both environments, and especially on the road, where it's usually driven. If road fun is compromised for the sake of track (and road) capability, I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
As far as road vs track, the point is that a car will ideally be both fun and capable in both environments, and especially on the road, where it's usually driven. If road fun is compromised for the sake of track (and road) capability, I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
BUT as far as efficiency, big gains can made by a bunch of small improvements.
#107
01-27-2012, 11:42 AM
Excellent question/comment. I am having a hard time understanding why Porsche went to electric steering in the 991. Superb steering feel has always been one of things that was central to a 911 being a great drive -- why jeopardize this? Obviously, they did it to improve fuel economy/cut emissions, but by their own figures the savings attributable to EPAS are very small. Seems to me it's quite likely that they could have done all of the things they did with the 991 except for going to EPAS -- and thereby produced a car that is every bit as good, fast and capable while also being more tactile and involving at reasonable speeds and at very high speeds.
Andrew Frankel -- a true 911 fan -- wrote a very interesting review of the 991 in the current issue of Motorsport. In short, he said that the car is absolutely incredible. He also said that it was extremely easy to drive, and that it has become so capable that he "was so concerned that the process of domesticating the 911 had finally gone a step too far..." He wondered whether, underneath all the sophistication, there "still beat the heart of the world's greatest sports car." So, he "thrashed" it to find out. And he found that "heart."
However... he said the EPAS is great by EPAS standards, which is a massive qualification. He had to comprehensively thrash the car to find its soul -- it was there, but it wasn't apparent until he drove it at truly enormous speeds. He said "if you know where to look," it's "a hard-core driving machine" but that "you have to search too hard to find this other side of its character."
That's what concerns me -- it's undoubtedly an extraordinary car, but if it has to be driven at huge speeds at the absolute ragged edge to be truly involving, it may be what I'm looking for.
I hope my concerns prove unfounded.
Andrew Frankel -- a true 911 fan -- wrote a very interesting review of the 991 in the current issue of Motorsport. In short, he said that the car is absolutely incredible. He also said that it was extremely easy to drive, and that it has become so capable that he "was so concerned that the process of domesticating the 911 had finally gone a step too far..." He wondered whether, underneath all the sophistication, there "still beat the heart of the world's greatest sports car." So, he "thrashed" it to find out. And he found that "heart."
However... he said the EPAS is great by EPAS standards, which is a massive qualification. He had to comprehensively thrash the car to find its soul -- it was there, but it wasn't apparent until he drove it at truly enormous speeds. He said "if you know where to look," it's "a hard-core driving machine" but that "you have to search too hard to find this other side of its character."
That's what concerns me -- it's undoubtedly an extraordinary car, but if it has to be driven at huge speeds at the absolute ragged edge to be truly involving, it may be what I'm looking for.
I hope my concerns prove unfounded.
#108
01-27-2012, 12:05 PM
True, less than 1 mpg. I wouldn't doubt that this electric steering will be gone in a year or 2. They artificially decrease effort in higher speeds. I guess it might be good (according to reviews) if you never had a 911 before, perhaps not so good if you can compare with your 997.
I tried the 650i with and without it, and the difference is substantial. The new M5 will come with hydraulic steering while the regular 5 series have electric steering. It seems that BMW is more serious about their ultimate driving machines than the no substitutes from Porsche... Those are much bigger and heavier cars, of course.
I guess we need to wait until feb 4th when some of our friends here take deliver.
#109
01-27-2012, 12:12 PM
True, less than 1 mpg. I wouldn't doubt that this electric steering will be gone in a year or 2. They artificially decrease effort in higher speeds. I guess it might be good (according to reviews) if you never had a 911 before, perhaps not so good if you can compare with your 997.
I tried the 650i with and without it, and the difference is substantial. The new M5 will come with hydraulic steering while the regular 5 series have electric steering. It seems that BMW is more serious about their ultimate driving machines than the no substitutes from Porsche... Those are much bigger and heavier cars, of course.
I guess we need to wait until feb 4th when some of our friends here take deliver.
I tried the 650i with and without it, and the difference is substantial. The new M5 will come with hydraulic steering while the regular 5 series have electric steering. It seems that BMW is more serious about their ultimate driving machines than the no substitutes from Porsche... Those are much bigger and heavier cars, of course.
I guess we need to wait until feb 4th when some of our friends here take deliver.
#110
01-27-2012, 08:40 PM
I don't disagree that Porsche is going in a direction which supports their business interest, nor do I fault them for that. But it does seem odd to change the steering in a way that could diminish enjoyment for a minimal gain in efficiency.
As far as road vs track, the point is that a car will ideally be both fun and capable in both environments, and especially on the road, where it's usually driven. If road fun is compromised for the sake of track (and road) capability, I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
As far as road vs track, the point is that a car will ideally be both fun and capable in both environments, and especially on the road, where it's usually driven. If road fun is compromised for the sake of track (and road) capability, I'm not sure that's the best way to go.
To compromise the steering feel for the sake of less than a single mpg in a 911 -- not a Cayenne, not a Panamera, but a 911 -- seems extremely foolish.
I understand why Porsche is building cars that are more suitable for more people, but I don't have to like it. I remember a Porsche magazine advert for the 911 from not that long ago, and the caption went something like, "It's not the right car for everyone, but it is the perfect car for someone." It may now be the right car for far more people, but it may no longer be the perfect car for that someone. That someone may be me. I do look forward to finding out.
#111
01-27-2012, 08:51 PM
One more thing. IMO it's a crying shame that (like the Boxster and Cayman) the engine is completely invisible.
#113
01-28-2012, 04:53 AM
The electric steering may also have to do with overall vehicular integration as they move more into electronic/computer controls. This has been with us and is ever increasing. It seems to me manufacturers are "re-inventing the wheel" in some cases just because, and in other cases, we will probably see why as the future comes.
#114
01-28-2012, 08:27 AM
from the 997 generation. Lets face it if you owned a wide body of any type the slimmer usually does not do much for you.
#115
01-28-2012, 09:02 AM
The hands on reviews I've watched (video) with electric steering all have a similar take - they say it makes the car follow a line thru a turn better. The insist that it really helps when tracking the car as it's very precise. I'm not sure how the previous was less precise but the reports have been largely positive in favor of the new steering system.
#116
01-28-2012, 09:14 AM
The hands on reviews I've watched (video) with electric steering all have a similar take - they say it makes the car follow a line thru a turn better. The insist that it really helps when tracking the car as it's very precise. I'm not sure how the previous was less precise but the reports have been largely positive in favor of the new steering system.
The 991 seems to have taken out some of the driver input needed to do this.
I say seems to since I have not driven one nor to I know of anyone test driving here that has really driven the 991 to it's limit on a turn on a closed track.
I guess there are drivers who possess more talent then the 991 can handle. But it seems to me there is little that you can throw at this car that it won't handle.
#117
01-28-2012, 10:06 AM
This has been mentioned a few times. I just added some oil to my 997.2 C4S and took a good look at the engine compartment. Maybe it's not completely invisible, but there's not much engine to be seen there, either.
#118
01-28-2012, 11:53 AM
you guys better get used to it because soon... there will be no more stick shift 
Never mind the GPS guided cruise controls (which will become a push for autonomous driving) or the drowse detection (with camera's watching your every expression... great for big brother to log into) or the lane change assist or the.... you get the picture
All kidding aside, I've has a chance to sit and revs the engine on the 991 last week (like a kid hehehe) and have to say the int. is impeccable, wow just wow!
It certainly reflects the $$ you're paying for it.
It sounds amazing, TRULY!!!
And the outside looks longer, wider and lower... but (yes there's a but) in real life the difference between the 997 and 991 is not obvious, sure certain thing do jump out but I'm willing to bet that (outside of the rear lights and DRL's) the average person on the street is not going to see the difference...
Also it looks a lot wider in the pics than in real life... that was kinda of disappointing I really thought I could get away with the narrow body version of the 991, now I'm not so sure...
Which brings us back to $$$ is it worth getting a new (non wide-body) 991 S cab or am I better of getting a "new" 2011 997 Turbo cab for the same price!?
Or for that kind of money even a real "super car" like a slightly used SLS Gull-wing or roadster ?!
I'm more confused than ever
Never mind the GPS guided cruise controls (which will become a push for autonomous driving) or the drowse detection (with camera's watching your every expression... great for big brother to log into) or the lane change assist or the.... you get the picture
All kidding aside, I've has a chance to sit and revs the engine on the 991 last week (like a kid hehehe) and have to say the int. is impeccable, wow just wow!
It certainly reflects the $$ you're paying for it.
It sounds amazing, TRULY!!!
And the outside looks longer, wider and lower... but (yes there's a but) in real life the difference between the 997 and 991 is not obvious, sure certain thing do jump out but I'm willing to bet that (outside of the rear lights and DRL's) the average person on the street is not going to see the difference...
Also it looks a lot wider in the pics than in real life... that was kinda of disappointing I really thought I could get away with the narrow body version of the 991, now I'm not so sure...
Which brings us back to $$$ is it worth getting a new (non wide-body) 991 S cab or am I better of getting a "new" 2011 997 Turbo cab for the same price!?
Or for that kind of money even a real "super car" like a slightly used SLS Gull-wing or roadster ?!
I'm more confused than ever
#119
01-28-2012, 01:17 PM
you guys better get used to it because soon... there will be no more stick shift
Never mind the GPS guided cruise controls (which will become a push for autonomous driving) or the drowse detection (with camera's watching your every expression... great for big brother to log into) or the lane change assist or the.... you get the picture
All kidding aside, I've has a chance to sit and revs the engine on the 991 last week (like a kid hehehe) and have to say the int. is impeccable, wow just wow!
It certainly reflects the $$ you're paying for it.
It sounds amazing, TRULY!!!
And the outside looks longer, wider and lower... but (yes there's a but) in real life the difference between the 997 and 991 is not obvious, sure certain thing do jump out but I'm willing to bet that (outside of the rear lights and DRL's) the average person on the street is not going to see the difference...
Also it looks a lot wider in the pics than in real life... that was kinda of disappointing I really thought I could get away with the narrow body version of the 991, now I'm not so sure...
Which brings us back to $$$ is it worth getting a new (non wide-body) 991 S cab or am I better of getting a "new" 2011 997 Turbo cab for the same price!?
Or for that kind of money even a real "super car" like a slightly used SLS Gull-wing or roadster ?!
I'm more confused than ever
Never mind the GPS guided cruise controls (which will become a push for autonomous driving) or the drowse detection (with camera's watching your every expression... great for big brother to log into) or the lane change assist or the.... you get the picture
All kidding aside, I've has a chance to sit and revs the engine on the 991 last week (like a kid hehehe) and have to say the int. is impeccable, wow just wow!
It certainly reflects the $$ you're paying for it.
It sounds amazing, TRULY!!!
And the outside looks longer, wider and lower... but (yes there's a but) in real life the difference between the 997 and 991 is not obvious, sure certain thing do jump out but I'm willing to bet that (outside of the rear lights and DRL's) the average person on the street is not going to see the difference...
Also it looks a lot wider in the pics than in real life... that was kinda of disappointing I really thought I could get away with the narrow body version of the 991, now I'm not so sure...
Which brings us back to $$$ is it worth getting a new (non wide-body) 991 S cab or am I better of getting a "new" 2011 997 Turbo cab for the same price!?
Or for that kind of money even a real "super car" like a slightly used SLS Gull-wing or roadster ?!
I'm more confused than ever
#120
01-28-2012, 02:45 PM
Fair enough. Perhaps Porsche is taking this opportunity to 'draw that line in the sand' and say - "If you track, you NEED a GT3, and if you don't, don't get a GT3. We didn't design the 991 911 C2/C4/Turbo to be a track car, but rather a comfortable luxury grand tourer, with performance equal to or superior to the recognized supercars for today."
BUT as far as efficiency, big gains can made by a bunch of small improvements.
BUT as far as efficiency, big gains can made by a bunch of small improvements.