Ok jasper, for arguments sake, let's just say Porsche is paying journos to say nice things about how soulful the experience is. What happened to Nissan then? Did they not pay enough....or did the money find its way into the wrong hands.... I mean you could excuse one journo for falsely commenting on a lack of soul, but 99.999% of them? Maybe Nissans just not paying enough afterall... All pretty well sing the same tune re the lack of soul. Unless your driving it at breakneck speeds the car leaves you feeling a bit empty. I felt much the same thing....same with WRX as well. Both great when you're on the limmit but outside of that the driving experience leaves you wanting. I don't get that same feeling with any Porsche. Fast or slow, it's always an interesting, engaging, and pleasurable experience. 991 still delivers that experience.

 

I'm attempting to leave the GT-R vs 911 debate out of this...

See: Tesla vs Top Gear as another example of the power of a review. Words can move money. It is clear that some journalists have their own bias (see: Chris Harris), while others move where the support is. I'm not saying that all journalists are influenced, but they have become severely predictable.

Regarding your position of soul as it applied to the GT-R, I predicted that (even before the 2012 was released) that the reviews would be changed, people would say it has soul... Knowing that term is pointless as criteria, as every reader will interpret it differently, it was insanely easy to predict, even with myself never experiencing the 2012 (because it wasn't out yet).

And what happened? The first reviews were coming out, saying the GT-R now has a soul, etc... Worthless. It is the same damn car with a slight (albeit effective) suspension mod.

What do we see happening with the 991? Same crap. This isn't rocket science. Journalists want to appeal to their audience. They keep their finger on the pulse of their demographic, reporting in a manner that they believe will relate. It was stated very well earlier in this thread. AND - I will say now, that for those journalists who say the 991 have lost its soul, they will adjust with the 991.2, saying it feels like a traditional 911.

 

Haha nice try.

OK. Agree one needs to put certain comments through a sieve.....just that there are a hell of a lot of sieves re Gtrs lack of soul.

If 2012 gtr now has a semblance of a soul then I look forward to reading that from the testers here. May mean I will need to reappraise the situation myself if that's the case. I don't have anything against GTR...its certainly fast....if not somewhat unattractive,...just doesn't deliver the same driving sensations the Porsche does.

There were certain hints of a "reduction of soul" in 991 but can't say i've felt that myself.....although my drive was manual. It also came down to the cars and spec of the cars being tested too. I note the 991 base manual was given a clean bill of "soul" health.....not so the pdk....or that's how it appeared to me anyway. Oh...and it goes without saying the 991.2 will be a better car.....thats' pretty standard to expect.

 

Hey guys,
I tend to agree with Speed21 - I have read every review I could and many had critical things to say about aspects of the 991. I like that - it is an earmark of objectivity. Some do not like PDK and some, while acknowledging that it may have the best electronic steering system to date, make clear their distaste for it nonetheless. Others liken the interior to the Panamera, like that is a bad thing. Fine for them.

But to me this car is not without soul, like my Subaru Impreza. A great little car to be sure and fantastic in the snow, but my Mustang it ain't.

No, to me, and I speak for no one else, the 991 has more than enough soul - it has two infact. In sports plus, it is a great sportscar - even if it may not be as unforgiving as its ancestors. But in standard mode, it is also a superb touring car - comfortable, adaptable, agile and quick with room for a long weekend's worth of luggage. It is fun, intuitive and a pleasure. That is why I gave up a 997.2 that I loved to buy a car that is a match whether or not I want to be Jeckle or Hyde. If anything, it is schizophrenic. And as Ian Hunter observed, you are never alone with a schizophrenic.

It does not lack soul - it has a spare. I wish i could say the same in connection with its tires!

 

Regarding the 2012 - the reviewers seem to believe that oversteer = soul.

Regarding the 991, people say steering is numb = no soul (perhaps because they KNOW it is electric, I feel if they knew it was just a different hydraulic system, rack and pinion, power assist, etc...reviews would be different, it would have been glossed over as slightly different but still very 911).

Or PDK = no soul. This will be the timeless argument against dual clutches, until the last single clutch is in the Smithsonian.

 

Seems hard to define the soul of a car, and fairly subjective too. But for me, the 997 has more soul than the 991. Best way I can describe it is that the 997 dances a lot more, whereas the 991 is more focused on getting the job done (mainly objective performance and luxury). Doesn't mean the 991 has no soul, just less IMO.

 

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with your ultimate conclusion. Moreover, I think, like the old saying goes, you can never be too rich or too thin, you can never have too much objective performance too much luxury.

 

Manifold with all due respect, everything you say has a subjective or objective connotation attached to it. It's nearly as if you draw upon these same two words all the time to avoid making a commitment to any given comment one way or the other....just saying.

Soul or lack thereof however is definable, as evidenced by the expert drivers that have reviewed these performance cars. So you can subjective objective that till the cows come home for all I care because at the end of the day the car either has it or it doesn't and where 991 is concerned the verdict is clear: IT STILL HAS SOUL!!!

And, with the new 991 the general message is that the new car is a clear step up overall from the outgoing model. User reviews confirm same....of course with exception to the odd individual that co incidentally has an outgoing model wrapped around them. I'd agree with Jasper (ok granted that's a rare event) that if nobody knew the steering was electric they would be singing a different tune. I definitely agree with that one Jasper!. But it makes good publicity for the so called purists that prefer their model T's... to sleep easy with the thought they are still on some kind of safe ground....when in reality they have been clearly outdone but aren't able to handle it....and therefore need to be eased down "gently" while their beloved earlier model wears itself out to the point of replacement.

Soul is a different kettle of fish altogether, but that said 911 has soul and always has had soul (unlike you know what brand car). So, where 911 is concerned let's just say the soul has changed...one could say for the better.....one could say for the worse.....depending whether you own 991 or 997. Now if you had no dog in the fight, the ability to see through all the "objective subjective" fog becomes surprisingly easy.

 

Wow I don't check in for a while and all hell breaks out, yeezzz can't believe I almost missed this.

That's got to be the first time I've ever heard a 911 referred to as an "inferior product"... it doesn't matter what year a 911 is, all have been/are something to aspire to.
It is the one name all others are compared to, be they higher or lower price points.

To state they are an inferior product is ridiculous!
Unless I'm reading this wrong but I do not see how I could have...
That said I should probably read the rest of the posts
Just couldn't help myself, had to say something.

 

Lack of low end torque? C'mon now this thing is running similar times to 996 Turbo's with the X50 package

12.0@118mph and 3's to 60 naturally aspirated (which it better stay for a long time)

I'm a die hard GT3 fan, not so much 911T. I'll trade more RPM for less torque almost any day given one choice, it really gives it that race car feel I demand from the best performance cars. Cars that don't have "soul" lack that feel, that sensation, that sound, that responsiveness, that 'tight' gearbox.

Thank you Porsche for giving us a motor that's just that much more glorious, in a LIGHTER and much more dynamic package.

 

Seems to me that the faster acceleration is mainly due to lighter weight and PDK going bonkers in sport plus, especially in launch mode, NOT a better engine. I don't recall, is there any torque increase at all?

 

Of course we need to make the distinction between between objective and subjective. If it's just about the numbers, we should all just get the latest GT-R and save a lot of money compared to a 911.

And how am I not making a commitment? I've expressed my opinion several times, and have been consistent about it, without claiming that it's more than opinion.

'Soul' is objectively definable by expert drivers? Sorry, no. Each individual has to judge for themselves, plus the 'experts' don't agree anyway.

As far as your repeated assertions that 997 guys don't like the 991 because they secretly feel outdone and can't afford to 'move up' to the 991, I suggest that you avoid making assumptions based on your own situation or what you've seen in Australia. Plenty of people can have what they want, but just aren't satisfied with the 991 relative to the 997 or other options.

 

Agreed. Not so much lightweight, but the PDK has come a long way from the early tiptronics in terms of acceleration. In terms of the engine, while the power output of the new NA Carreras comes close to some of the old turbo cars (400hp 991S vs 420 996TT), it is not a better engine. Quite far actually. They've added some nice things such as direct injection to the engines, but it doesn't undo the basic issue that the Carrera block is an engine meant for production cost cutting. I will curiously await to see what they will put in the new GT3/GT2 and their racecars, since Porsche said they will discontinue the GT1 Block, which was the last real good flat 6 that left their factories...

 

I almost agree with you, but a few issues:

- I wouldn't want objective performance if it comes too much at the expense of driving enjoyment.

- It may sound heretical, but I'm starting to think that a car can have too much objective performance for public roads. For example, with the Cayman R especially, the thing is so stable and easy to drive fast that it begs for very supra-legal speeds in order to bring in the fun factor. I've honestly wondered whether something like a Miata might make more sense.

- I like luxury, but there's also something to be said for raw austerity in a sports car.

Getting back to the 991, I think they've done a great job of improving both the objective performance and luxury of the car, making it an ideal car for many people, and thus probably a good business decision. But I still think that some important classic 911 feel has been compromised to achieve that, and some people will lament that.

 

lol! Let's keep this in context, omitting the GT-R vs 911 debate, I was referring to the 997 vs 991. It is clear upon initial testing (driving impressions aside) that the 991 is a superior performer between the two. I'm suggesting that those who have the 997 (maybe just bought one, finding one used, or prefer for whatever reason) and don't want to look at the 991, use 'soul' as as an undefinable excuse to explain this away.