Third Test Drive of the 991 (Manifold)
#61
04-30-2012, 02:48 PM
Why not then increase the wheelbase another 4", front track another 2", rear track another 1", and move the engine farther forward for more equal weight distribution, so that the car is faster yet and less like a classic 911? Better yet, forget the token of a back seat and make it a proper mid-engined car instead of preserving the obsolete rear-engine layout which everyone knows makes no sense. Who cares how the car feels dynamically, or the feedback and interaction it offers to the driver? Fast, stable, and comfy is all that matters, right?
Somehow, I think you are making his point!
The 997 is almost a foot longer than the original 911, weighs a lot more is faster and is far more comfy. So I guess the 997 is no 911, either.
#62
04-30-2012, 03:07 PM
So fast, stable and comfy are now bad things? A [totally subjective] driver dynamic in a car that is small, unstable and uncomfortable is better, or make the 997 better than the 991?
Somehow, I think you are making his point!
The 997 is almost a foot longer than the original 911, weighs a lot more is faster and is far more comfy. So I guess the 997 is no 911, either.
Somehow, I think you are making his point!
The 997 is almost a foot longer than the original 911, weighs a lot more is faster and is far more comfy. So I guess the 997 is no 911, either.
The 997 may be less a 911 than the original, but then the 991 is a significant further step away from the original. The fact that this is debated so intensely, with proponents on both sides, illustrates that clearly. Can you honestly tell me that it feels anywhere near as rear-engined as the 997?
If I eventually buy a 991, I'll do so knowing both what I gained and gave up relative to the 997.
Last edited by Manifold; 04-30-2012 at 03:10 PM.
#63
04-30-2012, 04:47 PM
The point is that a tradeoff is involved. Whether the tradeoff is worth it is subjective. And it's not as though the 997 is small, unstable, or uncomfortable. Au contraire.
The 997 may be less a 911 than the original, but then the 991 is a significant further step away from the original. The fact that this is debated so intensely, with proponents on both sides, illustrates that clearly. Can you honestly tell me that it feels anywhere near as rear-engined as the 997?
If I eventually buy a 991, I'll do so knowing both what I gained and gave up relative to the 997.
The 997 may be less a 911 than the original, but then the 991 is a significant further step away from the original. The fact that this is debated so intensely, with proponents on both sides, illustrates that clearly. Can you honestly tell me that it feels anywhere near as rear-engined as the 997?
If I eventually buy a 991, I'll do so knowing both what I gained and gave up relative to the 997.
Good trade!
#64
04-30-2012, 08:24 PM
Why not then increase the wheelbase another 4", front track another 2", rear track another 1", and move the engine farther forward for more equal weight distribution, so that the car is faster yet and less like a classic 911? Better yet, forget the token of a back seat and make it a proper mid-engined car instead of preserving the obsolete rear-engine layout which everyone knows makes no sense. Who cares how the car feels dynamically, or the feedback and interaction it offers to the driver? Fast, stable, and comfy is all that matters, right?
#65
04-30-2012, 08:28 PM
I see the 911 as the ultimate "family" sports car. Back seat for the kids, comfortable ride and good reliability for daily use, while offering great track performance. They have improved all those things in the 991. Apparently you see the 911 as a poorly designed, bare bones, rear engine sports car that can spin out and kill you at any moment, and are upset that Porsche keeps making it less scary and more refined with every chassis improvement....
#66
04-30-2012, 08:55 PM
The funny thing is who's to say which is the 'real 911' anyway?
I mean sure the 991 isn't like the 997 and the 997 isn't like the 993 and the 993 isn't like the 964. But who decided the 993 or 997 or 964 is the 'real 911' anyway?
They're all different, but maybe the 991 is is the real one and the other one's are the 'impostors'
I love the 993 as much as the next guy, but honestly I would never want one for more than a sunday morning ride. I don't like the 996 because it's ugly as sin (no disrespect to those who love it) I really like the 997, but now I like the 991 despite its differences. 2 generations from now in 2030 someone will be looking back at the the 991 when they've got the 995 or whatever they're going to call it and going, man it's no 991.
Anyway, my point is, I don't disagree that they're all different, I just think it's HUGELY subjective for one person to decide which is the one true generation of 911s by which all others shall be judged.
I mean sure the 991 isn't like the 997 and the 997 isn't like the 993 and the 993 isn't like the 964. But who decided the 993 or 997 or 964 is the 'real 911' anyway?
They're all different, but maybe the 991 is is the real one and the other one's are the 'impostors'
I love the 993 as much as the next guy, but honestly I would never want one for more than a sunday morning ride. I don't like the 996 because it's ugly as sin (no disrespect to those who love it) I really like the 997, but now I like the 991 despite its differences. 2 generations from now in 2030 someone will be looking back at the the 991 when they've got the 995 or whatever they're going to call it and going, man it's no 991.
Anyway, my point is, I don't disagree that they're all different, I just think it's HUGELY subjective for one person to decide which is the one true generation of 911s by which all others shall be judged.
#67
04-30-2012, 09:00 PM
The funny thing is who's to say which is the 'real 911' anyway?
I mean sure the 991 isn't like the 997 and the 997 isn't like the 993 and the 993 isn't like the 964. But who decided the 993 or 997 or 964 is the 'real 911' anyway?
They're all different, but maybe the 991 is is the real one and the other one's are the 'impostors'
I love the 993 as much as the next guy, but honestly I would never want one for more than a sunday morning ride. I don't like the 996 because it's ugly as sin (no disrespect to those who love it) I really like the 997, but now I like the 991 despite its differences. 2 generations from now in 2030 someone will be looking back at the the 991 when they've got the 995 or whatever they're going to call it and going, man it's no 991.
Anyway, my point is, I don't disagree that they're all different, I just think it's HUGELY subjective for one person to decide which is the one true generation of 911s by which all others shall be judged.
I mean sure the 991 isn't like the 997 and the 997 isn't like the 993 and the 993 isn't like the 964. But who decided the 993 or 997 or 964 is the 'real 911' anyway?
They're all different, but maybe the 991 is is the real one and the other one's are the 'impostors'
I love the 993 as much as the next guy, but honestly I would never want one for more than a sunday morning ride. I don't like the 996 because it's ugly as sin (no disrespect to those who love it) I really like the 997, but now I like the 991 despite its differences. 2 generations from now in 2030 someone will be looking back at the the 991 when they've got the 995 or whatever they're going to call it and going, man it's no 991.
Anyway, my point is, I don't disagree that they're all different, I just think it's HUGELY subjective for one person to decide which is the one true generation of 911s by which all others shall be judged.
Or was that my wife electing me to walk the dog and take out the trash?
#68
04-30-2012, 09:24 PM
I see the 911 as the ultimate "family" sports car. Back seat for the kids, comfortable ride and good reliability for daily use, while offering great track performance. They have improved all those things in the 991. Apparently you see the 911 as a poorly designed, bare bones, rear engine sports car that can spin out and kill you at any moment, and are upset that Porsche keeps making it less scary and more refined with every chassis improvement....
For me, the 997 may have been the optimum tradeoff between the virtues you mentioned versus retaining the rear-engined driving dynamics. For others, the 991 is the new optimum. It's ok for people to have difference preferences on this, since our priorities aren't all the same.
The trouble comes in when people try to argue that the 991 is objectively overall better, or better in every way. No dice on that one. And I will likewise accept that older generations may have been better in some ways than the 997.
#70
04-30-2012, 09:45 PM
We'll see. To get me to give up what I love about the 997, it may take a *****-to-the-wall 991 GT3. I don't think the 991 base and S have what I need to make a switch right now. But I enjoy test driving and my dealer is very accommodating, so I'll keep trying more recipes. Maybe an S with MT next.
#71
04-30-2012, 10:09 PM
#72
04-30-2012, 10:25 PM
[quote=muifast;3530123][quote=Manifold;3529776]I think the major benefit of PDCC is that, by enabling the car to corner flatter, it gives the driver the sensation of much greater grip. ...
Went back again to test both an S and a Cab S Saturday morning. Went in at 9:30 and didn't leave till 2PM.
Both had PDK, PSE, PDCC, PASM, Sport Chrono, Premium Package Plus with Adaptive Sport Seats Plus, power steering plus, sport design steering wheel, etc... went up the hill at 100mph in both with all settings off and then on, launched both cars and cruised downhill as well.
My order for a platinum silver 991S with June/July build and August delivery in the order of importance is...
PDCC/PASM/Sport Chrono - with full settings, its still not as raw as the GTs but a great DD. Keep in mind, raw driving feel to me does not equate to a faster car, but rather a more direct feel closer to karting. Whether the settings are on/off, its civil enough for those long days back from the office.
PSE - that popping and burbling sound is JUUUUSST TO DIE FOR!!! I would see about keeping the PSE on at all times. Maybe it will be a simple disconnect of a plug like the GT3s. And my kid said the 991 is actually louder than the GT3 as we drove home. I wonder if I can get it to spit flames too... SWEEEEEET...
PDK - this was a toughy. I had originally settled on waiting for the MT, but after test driving PDKs again at full song and then slow crusing speeds, its just that much sweeter and a design triumph for Porsche. I had 6MTs before and with 7 gears to row, it might get a bit tiresome. I will save the MT for the GT3/RS next year.
Sport Design Steering Wheel - I believe buttons do not belong at the 9-3 locations. Too easy to press incorrectly. I would probably look for a pair of longer paddles similar to Ferrai's to replace the standard ones.
Sunroof in Glass - the opening for sunroof is quite large and the regular roof opens only 35% of the available space. For a few hundred more, I decide to go with the glass roof that can utilize more of the opening. Either you want a sunroof or you don't. And since I do, I am ordering the glass roof. I understand there are structural issues with such a choice, but for a DD, its not as important. I will opt-out when the GT3s come out. Really looking forward to this glass-domed or targa feel in this intimate cabin.
Burmester - an intriguing option, had BOSE in other cars and wanted to try something more. At $2600 more than the BOSE option, its not a difficult yes.
20in Sport Classic Wheels - personal preference. They had one with HRE if I wanted, but the gap between the spokes were just too large for my taste. The rotors and calipers did not fill the space well.
Premium Pkg Plus w/ Adaptive Sports Seats Plus - definitely an expensive option at $6200, either I go all inclusive or not at all, so yes for now. With warm weather out here, the ventilated seats cooled down my back very efficiently, especially around the neck areas. Other features are nice-to-haves. The additional seat adjustment between 14 vs 18 ways are not as crucial as the shoulder supports. Everytime I lean back, my shoulders were very comfortable. At $1700 more than the Prem Pkg Plus for the additional adjustments and shoulder supports, its a toss-up but yes for now.
Two-Tone Leather - personal choice, agate/pepper grey.
Auto Start/Stop - this is one feature that I really don't care for. Its just rough coming back on every single time and had a slight delay. Not sure if its because of the low miles or the vehicle's not broken in, but I am happy that the button is there for me to keep it off at all times and does not cost anything to be there...
Power Steering Plus - hmmm... great for Caddies of yor and not light enough for 1-finger turning here, so I am confused why its even offered. Did not go for it.
Other features like alum window trims, park assist, folding mirrors, belts, red gauges, etc... are toss ups...
I have until late May to close the build so... that's it for now.
It does get up there, but I don't think we will get back to the prices back in 2008/9. It will only go up from here. I am fully expecting the 991 GT3/RS to hit 180k when it arrives 2 years from now. And it will still be atleast 100k+ cheaper than the 458's.
The dealership also had a 430 with 5000 miles for 145k and an RS with 2200 miles for 134k. But I think as much as I pined for the RS, I would wait for the 991 RS instead. Letting go of the 430 was a lot tougher... its simply a more exotic choice but not a practical DD for me.
Wonderful review, thanks for sharing.
Went back again to test both an S and a Cab S Saturday morning. Went in at 9:30 and didn't leave till 2PM.
Both had PDK, PSE, PDCC, PASM, Sport Chrono, Premium Package Plus with Adaptive Sport Seats Plus, power steering plus, sport design steering wheel, etc... went up the hill at 100mph in both with all settings off and then on, launched both cars and cruised downhill as well.
My order for a platinum silver 991S with June/July build and August delivery in the order of importance is...
PDCC/PASM/Sport Chrono - with full settings, its still not as raw as the GTs but a great DD. Keep in mind, raw driving feel to me does not equate to a faster car, but rather a more direct feel closer to karting. Whether the settings are on/off, its civil enough for those long days back from the office.
PSE - that popping and burbling sound is JUUUUSST TO DIE FOR!!! I would see about keeping the PSE on at all times. Maybe it will be a simple disconnect of a plug like the GT3s. And my kid said the 991 is actually louder than the GT3 as we drove home. I wonder if I can get it to spit flames too... SWEEEEEET...
PDK - this was a toughy. I had originally settled on waiting for the MT, but after test driving PDKs again at full song and then slow crusing speeds, its just that much sweeter and a design triumph for Porsche. I had 6MTs before and with 7 gears to row, it might get a bit tiresome. I will save the MT for the GT3/RS next year.
Sport Design Steering Wheel - I believe buttons do not belong at the 9-3 locations. Too easy to press incorrectly. I would probably look for a pair of longer paddles similar to Ferrai's to replace the standard ones.
Sunroof in Glass - the opening for sunroof is quite large and the regular roof opens only 35% of the available space. For a few hundred more, I decide to go with the glass roof that can utilize more of the opening. Either you want a sunroof or you don't. And since I do, I am ordering the glass roof. I understand there are structural issues with such a choice, but for a DD, its not as important. I will opt-out when the GT3s come out. Really looking forward to this glass-domed or targa feel in this intimate cabin.
Burmester - an intriguing option, had BOSE in other cars and wanted to try something more. At $2600 more than the BOSE option, its not a difficult yes.
20in Sport Classic Wheels - personal preference. They had one with HRE if I wanted, but the gap between the spokes were just too large for my taste. The rotors and calipers did not fill the space well.
Premium Pkg Plus w/ Adaptive Sports Seats Plus - definitely an expensive option at $6200, either I go all inclusive or not at all, so yes for now. With warm weather out here, the ventilated seats cooled down my back very efficiently, especially around the neck areas. Other features are nice-to-haves. The additional seat adjustment between 14 vs 18 ways are not as crucial as the shoulder supports. Everytime I lean back, my shoulders were very comfortable. At $1700 more than the Prem Pkg Plus for the additional adjustments and shoulder supports, its a toss-up but yes for now.
Two-Tone Leather - personal choice, agate/pepper grey.
Auto Start/Stop - this is one feature that I really don't care for. Its just rough coming back on every single time and had a slight delay. Not sure if its because of the low miles or the vehicle's not broken in, but I am happy that the button is there for me to keep it off at all times and does not cost anything to be there...
Power Steering Plus - hmmm... great for Caddies of yor and not light enough for 1-finger turning here, so I am confused why its even offered. Did not go for it.
Other features like alum window trims, park assist, folding mirrors, belts, red gauges, etc... are toss ups...
I have until late May to close the build so... that's it for now.
It does get up there, but I don't think we will get back to the prices back in 2008/9. It will only go up from here. I am fully expecting the 991 GT3/RS to hit 180k when it arrives 2 years from now. And it will still be atleast 100k+ cheaper than the 458's.
The dealership also had a 430 with 5000 miles for 145k and an RS with 2200 miles for 134k. But I think as much as I pined for the RS, I would wait for the 991 RS instead. Letting go of the 430 was a lot tougher... its simply a more exotic choice but not a practical DD for me.
#73
05-01-2012, 01:20 PM
[quote=muifast;3530123][quote=Manifold;3529776]I think the major benefit of PDCC is that, by enabling the car to corner flatter, it gives the driver the sensation of much greater grip. ...
Went back again to test both an S and a Cab S Saturday morning. Went in at 9:30 and didn't leave till 2PM.
Both had PDK, PSE, PDCC, PASM, Sport Chrono, Premium Package Plus with Adaptive Sport Seats Plus, power steering plus, sport design steering wheel, etc... went up the hill at 100mph in both with all settings off and then on, launched both cars and cruised downhill as well.
My order for a platinum silver 991S with June/July build and August delivery in the order of importance is...
PDCC/PASM/Sport Chrono - with full settings, its still not as raw as the GTs but a great DD. Keep in mind, raw driving feel to me does not equate to a faster car, but rather a more direct feel closer to karting. Whether the settings are on/off, its civil enough for those long days back from the office.
PSE - that popping and burbling sound is JUUUUSST TO DIE FOR!!! I would see about keeping the PSE on at all times. Maybe it will be a simple disconnect of a plug like the GT3s. And my kid said the 991 is actually louder than the GT3 as we drove home. I wonder if I can get it to spit flames too... SWEEEEEET...
PDK - this was a toughy. I had originally settled on waiting for the MT, but after test driving PDKs again at full song and then slow crusing speeds, its just that much sweeter and a design triumph for Porsche. I had 6MTs before and with 7 gears to row, it might get a bit tiresome. I will save the MT for the GT3/RS next year.
Sport Design Steering Wheel - I believe buttons do not belong at the 9-3 locations. Too easy to press incorrectly. I would probably look for a pair of longer paddles similar to Ferrai's to replace the standard ones.
Sunroof in Glass - the opening for sunroof is quite large and the regular roof opens only 35% of the available space. For a few hundred more, I decide to go with the glass roof that can utilize more of the opening. Either you want a sunroof or you don't. And since I do, I am ordering the glass roof. I understand there are structural issues with such a choice, but for a DD, its not as important. I will opt-out when the GT3s come out. Really looking forward to this glass-domed or targa feel in this intimate cabin.
Burmester - an intriguing option, had BOSE in other cars and wanted to try something more. At $2600 more than the BOSE option, its not a difficult yes.
20in Sport Classic Wheels - personal preference. They had one with HRE if I wanted, but the gap between the spokes were just too large for my taste. The rotors and calipers did not fill the space well.
Premium Pkg Plus w/ Adaptive Sports Seats Plus - definitely an expensive option at $6200, either I go all inclusive or not at all, so yes for now. With warm weather out here, the ventilated seats cooled down my back very efficiently, especially around the neck areas. Other features are nice-to-haves. The additional seat adjustment between 14 vs 18 ways are not as crucial as the shoulder supports. Everytime I lean back, my shoulders were very comfortable. At $1700 more than the Prem Pkg Plus for the additional adjustments and shoulder supports, its a toss-up but yes for now.
Two-Tone Leather - personal choice, agate/pepper grey.
Auto Start/Stop - this is one feature that I really don't care for. Its just rough coming back on every single time and had a slight delay. Not sure if its because of the low miles or the vehicle's not broken in, but I am happy that the button is there for me to keep it off at all times and does not cost anything to be there...
Power Steering Plus - hmmm... great for Caddies of yor and not light enough for 1-finger turning here, so I am confused why its even offered. Did not go for it.
Other features like alum window trims, park assist, folding mirrors, belts, red gauges, etc... are toss ups...
I have until late May to close the build so... that's it for now.
It does get up there, but I don't think we will get back to the prices back in 2008/9. It will only go up from here. I am fully expecting the 991 GT3/RS to hit 180k when it arrives 2 years from now. And it will still be atleast 100k+ cheaper than the 458's.
The dealership also had a 430 with 5000 miles for 145k and an RS with 2200 miles for 134k. But I think as much as I pined for the RS, I would wait for the 991 RS instead. Letting go of the 430 was a lot tougher... its simply a more exotic choice but not a practical DD for me.
Great report. Be careful of the alum trim windows. I remeber a post from back in feb where someone was having big delays (months) because
Porsche was having problems with supply!
Went back again to test both an S and a Cab S Saturday morning. Went in at 9:30 and didn't leave till 2PM.
Both had PDK, PSE, PDCC, PASM, Sport Chrono, Premium Package Plus with Adaptive Sport Seats Plus, power steering plus, sport design steering wheel, etc... went up the hill at 100mph in both with all settings off and then on, launched both cars and cruised downhill as well.
My order for a platinum silver 991S with June/July build and August delivery in the order of importance is...
PDCC/PASM/Sport Chrono - with full settings, its still not as raw as the GTs but a great DD. Keep in mind, raw driving feel to me does not equate to a faster car, but rather a more direct feel closer to karting. Whether the settings are on/off, its civil enough for those long days back from the office.
PSE - that popping and burbling sound is JUUUUSST TO DIE FOR!!! I would see about keeping the PSE on at all times. Maybe it will be a simple disconnect of a plug like the GT3s. And my kid said the 991 is actually louder than the GT3 as we drove home. I wonder if I can get it to spit flames too... SWEEEEEET...
PDK - this was a toughy. I had originally settled on waiting for the MT, but after test driving PDKs again at full song and then slow crusing speeds, its just that much sweeter and a design triumph for Porsche. I had 6MTs before and with 7 gears to row, it might get a bit tiresome. I will save the MT for the GT3/RS next year.
Sport Design Steering Wheel - I believe buttons do not belong at the 9-3 locations. Too easy to press incorrectly. I would probably look for a pair of longer paddles similar to Ferrai's to replace the standard ones.
Sunroof in Glass - the opening for sunroof is quite large and the regular roof opens only 35% of the available space. For a few hundred more, I decide to go with the glass roof that can utilize more of the opening. Either you want a sunroof or you don't. And since I do, I am ordering the glass roof. I understand there are structural issues with such a choice, but for a DD, its not as important. I will opt-out when the GT3s come out. Really looking forward to this glass-domed or targa feel in this intimate cabin.
Burmester - an intriguing option, had BOSE in other cars and wanted to try something more. At $2600 more than the BOSE option, its not a difficult yes.
20in Sport Classic Wheels - personal preference. They had one with HRE if I wanted, but the gap between the spokes were just too large for my taste. The rotors and calipers did not fill the space well.
Premium Pkg Plus w/ Adaptive Sports Seats Plus - definitely an expensive option at $6200, either I go all inclusive or not at all, so yes for now. With warm weather out here, the ventilated seats cooled down my back very efficiently, especially around the neck areas. Other features are nice-to-haves. The additional seat adjustment between 14 vs 18 ways are not as crucial as the shoulder supports. Everytime I lean back, my shoulders were very comfortable. At $1700 more than the Prem Pkg Plus for the additional adjustments and shoulder supports, its a toss-up but yes for now.
Two-Tone Leather - personal choice, agate/pepper grey.
Auto Start/Stop - this is one feature that I really don't care for. Its just rough coming back on every single time and had a slight delay. Not sure if its because of the low miles or the vehicle's not broken in, but I am happy that the button is there for me to keep it off at all times and does not cost anything to be there...
Power Steering Plus - hmmm... great for Caddies of yor and not light enough for 1-finger turning here, so I am confused why its even offered. Did not go for it.
Other features like alum window trims, park assist, folding mirrors, belts, red gauges, etc... are toss ups...
I have until late May to close the build so... that's it for now.
It does get up there, but I don't think we will get back to the prices back in 2008/9. It will only go up from here. I am fully expecting the 991 GT3/RS to hit 180k when it arrives 2 years from now. And it will still be atleast 100k+ cheaper than the 458's.
The dealership also had a 430 with 5000 miles for 145k and an RS with 2200 miles for 134k. But I think as much as I pined for the RS, I would wait for the 991 RS instead. Letting go of the 430 was a lot tougher... its simply a more exotic choice but not a practical DD for me.
Porsche was having problems with supply!
#74
05-01-2012, 01:40 PM
Great discussion as always. My 2 cents. Looking at the 991 in detail there is nothing that I would not be able to live without. 5K Burmester? Why.... 7 speed manual? Hmm... 20 inch wheels ? ehh?... Interior... yep I have one... engine... mine is better. I am holding my breath on the early issues. Cost of the 991?? Priceless, because the money is in my bank account. Just saying that the current Carrera versions have nothing that I want to upgrade for. Next year might be a different story with the Gin & Tonic (GT and Turbo) versions coming out. I have a cold glass ready to pour.
#75
05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
Great discussion as always. My 2 cents. Looking at the 991 in detail there is nothing that I would not be able to live without. 5K Burmester? Why.... 7 speed manual? Hmm... 20 inch wheels ? ehh?... Interior... yep I have one... engine... mine is better. I am holding my breath on the early issues. Cost of the 991?? Priceless, because the money is in my bank account. Just saying that the current Carrera versions have nothing that I want to upgrade for. Next year might be a different story with the Gin & Tonic (GT and Turbo) versions coming out. I have a cold glass ready to pour.
