Road and Track "apologizes to the world" over PDK
#16
04-30-2013, 11:22 AM
ChuckJ
#17
04-30-2013, 11:24 AM
I am sure some women would argue that a "machine" can do the job more efficiently but most opt for a "manual".
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
#18
04-30-2013, 11:28 AM
I am sure some women would argue that a "machine" can do the job more efficiently but most opt for a "manual".
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
ChuckJ
#19
04-30-2013, 11:40 AM
Yikes, looks like Road & Track are no longer PDK fans. I have been saying this all along.
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The crux of the issue is that there's a fundamental difference between speed-obsessed German engineers and good ol' silly Americans who just love to drive a manual. For the former, there's a point at which the automatic is faster and can be programmed to be more efficient. It then becomes "better." To the rest of us, it merely becomes a better automatic. And while the GT3's PDK is one of the better automatics, there is not, nor will there ever be, an automatic that is as involving as a manual. The 911, like so many other cars, has traded a degree of involvement for speed. We'd happily lose time on the sprint to 60 mph, or a few seconds per lap, if it meant more fun.
Tobias Hutzler But rather than lay all the blame on Preuninger and Germans as a whole, we're partly at fault. There was a time when most enthusiasts seemed to view the dual-clutch automatic as the second coming. After living with those transmissions for a decade, they just feel like automatics.
On that note, allow us to apologize on behalf of an entire industry. We were wrong. We don't care about shaving tenths off acceleration runs. We want to work for our lap times. We're bored to death behind the wheel, and we want to get busy with a shift lever and a clutch pedal.
Perhaps those Germans also can admit they made a mistake.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The crux of the issue is that there's a fundamental difference between speed-obsessed German engineers and good ol' silly Americans who just love to drive a manual. For the former, there's a point at which the automatic is faster and can be programmed to be more efficient. It then becomes "better." To the rest of us, it merely becomes a better automatic. And while the GT3's PDK is one of the better automatics, there is not, nor will there ever be, an automatic that is as involving as a manual. The 911, like so many other cars, has traded a degree of involvement for speed. We'd happily lose time on the sprint to 60 mph, or a few seconds per lap, if it meant more fun.
On that note, allow us to apologize on behalf of an entire industry. We were wrong. We don't care about shaving tenths off acceleration runs. We want to work for our lap times. We're bored to death behind the wheel, and we want to get busy with a shift lever and a clutch pedal.
Perhaps those Germans also can admit they made a mistake.
Last edited by nicoli; 04-30-2013 at 11:47 AM.
#20
04-30-2013, 11:59 AM
Have you looked at the "new" Road & Track? The new editor has a whole new corps of writers and whole new look and feel. They have turned a venerable mag into a piece of crap.
I have subscribed for about 40 years and after seeing the first edition of the new regime have kissed it off. Get used to the Porsche bashing. Every issue will have some in an attempt to get some attention.
I have subscribed for about 40 years and after seeing the first edition of the new regime have kissed it off. Get used to the Porsche bashing. Every issue will have some in an attempt to get some attention.
#21
04-30-2013, 12:10 PM
I am sure some women would argue that a "machine" can do the job more efficiently but most opt for a "manual".
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
Suppose a machine could steer the car for you and do it faster and better than you can. Would you want to just sit there as a passenger and enjoy 2 tenths faster lap times or do you actually want to put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself.
Perhaps Porsche has forgotten the reason we... at least I .. but the cars is for driving pleasure. that's it and that's all. I don't give a rats *** about lap times. I care about the smile on my face when I depress the clutch pedal and row my own gears.
But... Will a camera/computer steering assist be allowed too? GPS with pre-calculated optimal paths & shifts, camera+radar watching other cars and adapting as needed? Where does it end? A robotic car competition? It might be technically interesting, but at some point it's all software, and I work on that all day long - and am not interested in driving that for fun. The fun for me is in rowing.
Having other high-end brands go to paddles in the name of 0-60 and ultimate lap times seems to have just created the race to automate, which is a shame. Maybe there will be a push-back after all, though I'm not counting on it, and definitely have the (sad) feeling the 991 could be the last offered with a MT.
Sincerely,
Someone who loves my MT and freely admits that a computer controlled dual-clutch shift with assisted rev matching, etc., can beat my shifting hands down. And someone who also just doesn't give a crap about that.
#22
04-30-2013, 12:40 PM
I was also pretty bummed when I read today that the new turbo will only be PDk also.
http://bit.ly/100Ahou
http://bit.ly/100Ahou
#23
04-30-2013, 01:00 PM
Maybe because the GT3 is built with one primary goal in mind: Getting around a track in the shortest amount of time possible. The rest of the 991's are built for different purposes.
#24
04-30-2013, 01:03 PM
I was also pretty bummed when I read today that the new turbo will only be PDk also.
http://bit.ly/100Ahou
http://bit.ly/100Ahou
#25
04-30-2013, 05:24 PM
...
But... Will a camera/computer steering assist be allowed too? GPS with pre-calculated optimal paths & shifts, camera+radar watching other cars and adapting as needed? Where does it end? A robotic car competition? It might be technically interesting, but at some point it's all software, and I work on that all day long - and am not interested in driving that for fun. The fun for me is in rowing.
...
But... Will a camera/computer steering assist be allowed too? GPS with pre-calculated optimal paths & shifts, camera+radar watching other cars and adapting as needed? Where does it end? A robotic car competition? It might be technically interesting, but at some point it's all software, and I work on that all day long - and am not interested in driving that for fun. The fun for me is in rowing.
...
Next thing you know, there will be fuel injection, limited slip differentials, power windows, electric pumps, etc...
There is already cameras and telemetry all over motorsports. It still comes down to the driver. Once remote control is added, the art will then move to the person controlling it (see: pilot drones getting awards for combat service), then it may move to the best computer program to lap the 'Ring.
I say - rely on sanctioning bodies to keep things in check, and keep the driver in control. The mechanism of how a gear is changed should not matter, whether it is moving a stick or flicking a paddle. The gear change is still made by the driver. If the only fun a driver has is moving a stick around, I'd suggest there is a lot lost during the drive.
#26
04-30-2013, 05:28 PM
They went with the faster car, which makes sense.
#27
04-30-2013, 06:25 PM
I blame electricity.
Next thing you know, there will be fuel injection, limited slip differentials, power windows, electric pumps, etc...
There is already cameras and telemetry all over motorsports. It still comes down to the driver. Once remote control is added, the art will then move to the person controlling it (see: pilot drones getting awards for combat service), then it may move to the best computer program to lap the 'Ring.
I say - rely on sanctioning bodies to keep things in check, and keep the driver in control. The mechanism of how a gear is changed should not matter, whether it is moving a stick or flicking a paddle. The gear change is still made by the driver. If the only fun a driver has is moving a stick around, I'd suggest there is a lot lost during the drive.
Next thing you know, there will be fuel injection, limited slip differentials, power windows, electric pumps, etc...
There is already cameras and telemetry all over motorsports. It still comes down to the driver. Once remote control is added, the art will then move to the person controlling it (see: pilot drones getting awards for combat service), then it may move to the best computer program to lap the 'Ring.
I say - rely on sanctioning bodies to keep things in check, and keep the driver in control. The mechanism of how a gear is changed should not matter, whether it is moving a stick or flicking a paddle. The gear change is still made by the driver. If the only fun a driver has is moving a stick around, I'd suggest there is a lot lost during the drive.
But when the only fun you have (left) is turning a wheel...
I'd rather not rely on sanctioning bodies for fun and really hope the laws aren't changed over time to mandate all of the new tech that's coming.Traditionally there's the steering wheel, brake/throttle + clutch/stick as the primary involvement while driving. Reducing that to steering, brake/throttle + finger flicks isn't as involving for me as performing a (worse) manual shift.
I don't blame electricity at all. I know you're tossing tangential examples of things like electric windows as points about 'progress', but they're really unrelated to the driving experience - unless you do a lot of window opening/closing as part of your driving, I suppose. Hand cranked fuel pumps and differentials probably also never made 'driving involvement' list.
PDK is great for a lot of people for a lot of different reasons - hell, there are probably enough new drivers who don't know how to use a MT to begin with - and am just glad Porsche still has[had?] the option not to get it, but it seems like it has a limited life remaining. P/N/R/D and +/- buttons just misses out on what a sports car always was - and the discussion about how you can simulate using clutch on the GT3 by pulling on both paddles to disengage the gears... damn, really?
Nostalgia and all that, though maybe a bit more than that too. Bummer in any case.
#29
04-30-2013, 06:45 PM
Why do you think this was a manufacturing cost issue rather than a research, quality or test issue?
ChuckJ
#30
04-30-2013, 06:49 PM
Have you looked at the "new" Road & Track? The new editor has a whole new corps of writers and whole new look and feel. They have turned a venerable mag into a piece of crap.
I have subscribed for about 40 years and after seeing the first edition of the new regime have kissed it off. Get used to the Porsche bashing. Every issue will have some in an attempt to get some attention.
I have subscribed for about 40 years and after seeing the first edition of the new regime have kissed it off. Get used to the Porsche bashing. Every issue will have some in an attempt to get some attention.
Reader since 1964 - unfortunately have 3 years left on my subscription.