Road and Track "apologizes to the world" over PDK
#61
05-03-2013 | 04:59 AM
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And we used to think the world was flat too. Progress is inevitable. And how many of these "Journos" actually drive the car for more than 1-2 days? For me PDK is involving, amazing and the only transmission I would consider.
Yikes, looks like Road & Track are no longer PDK fans. I have been saying this all along.
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The crux of the issue is that there's a fundamental difference between speed-obsessed German engineers and good ol' silly Americans who just love to drive a manual. For the former, there's a point at which the automatic is faster and can be programmed to be more efficient. It then becomes "better." To the rest of us, it merely becomes a better automatic. And while the GT3's PDK is one of the better automatics, there is not, nor will there ever be, an automatic that is as involving as a manual. The 911, like so many other cars, has traded a degree of involvement for speed. We'd happily lose time on the sprint to 60 mph, or a few seconds per lap, if it meant more fun.
Tobias Hutzler But rather than lay all the blame on Preuninger and Germans as a whole, we're partly at fault. There was a time when most enthusiasts seemed to view the dual-clutch automatic as the second coming. After living with those transmissions for a decade, they just feel like automatics.
On that note, allow us to apologize on behalf of an entire industry. We were wrong. We don't care about shaving tenths off acceleration runs. We want to work for our lap times. We're bored to death behind the wheel, and we want to get busy with a shift lever and a clutch pedal.
Perhaps those Germans also can admit they made a mistake.
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The crux of the issue is that there's a fundamental difference between speed-obsessed German engineers and good ol' silly Americans who just love to drive a manual. For the former, there's a point at which the automatic is faster and can be programmed to be more efficient. It then becomes "better." To the rest of us, it merely becomes a better automatic. And while the GT3's PDK is one of the better automatics, there is not, nor will there ever be, an automatic that is as involving as a manual. The 911, like so many other cars, has traded a degree of involvement for speed. We'd happily lose time on the sprint to 60 mph, or a few seconds per lap, if it meant more fun.
On that note, allow us to apologize on behalf of an entire industry. We were wrong. We don't care about shaving tenths off acceleration runs. We want to work for our lap times. We're bored to death behind the wheel, and we want to get busy with a shift lever and a clutch pedal.
Perhaps those Germans also can admit they made a mistake.
#62
05-03-2013 | 05:20 AM
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Where do you draw the line with this cry for more involvement? Do you go back to double declutching without synchromesh ?
Someone mentioned, if you feel not involved, if you are bored driving a PDK porsche you are going too slow. He might very well be right. There is sooooo much to do, to optimize and to manage (braking, car balance/weight transfer, grip,...) when driving 9/10 of 10/10ths that I am welcoming the extra time I get with the PDK to do just that. After all, my name is not Lewis Hamilton. So thank you Porsche for a wonderfull gearbox !
#63
05-03-2013 | 06:46 AM
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+1
Where do you draw the line with this cry for more involvement? Do you go back to double declutching without synchromesh ?
Someone mentioned, if you feel not involved, if you are bored driving a PDK porsche you are going too slow. He might very well be right. There is sooooo much to do, to optimize and to manage (braking, car balance/weight transfer, grip,...) when driving 9/10 of 10/10ths that I am welcoming the extra time I get with the PDK to do just that. After all, my name is not Lewis Hamilton. So thank you Porsche for a wonderfull gearbox !
Where do you draw the line with this cry for more involvement? Do you go back to double declutching without synchromesh ?
Someone mentioned, if you feel not involved, if you are bored driving a PDK porsche you are going too slow. He might very well be right. There is sooooo much to do, to optimize and to manage (braking, car balance/weight transfer, grip,...) when driving 9/10 of 10/10ths that I am welcoming the extra time I get with the PDK to do just that. After all, my name is not Lewis Hamilton. So thank you Porsche for a wonderfull gearbox !
ChuckJ
Last edited by ChuckJ; 05-03-2013 at 06:49 AM.
#65
05-03-2013 | 10:07 AM
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It's really an amazing sort of sociological experiment with the high emotions revolving around the advance of technology and involvement in driving etc. if I was in school this could make a fascinating paper 
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#67
05-03-2013 | 02:02 PM
I like it though and am happy to start these threads or contribute to them
#68
05-03-2013 | 02:20 PM
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If you're approaching it totally illogically, then absolutely! 
Otherwise, I'd have to go with "no".
I don't really understand the comparison to electric windows either, though. Unless you actually cranked your car along the road before there was an electric starter, it's really difficult to compare that to a manual transmission that you use as one of the primary controls while driving.
Now maybe the question is "why have a clutch either - why not just synchronize it by ear?". That one's easy:
1) I've done that (not on my new 991!), and it totally worked. Of course that wasn't while starting in first gear, but on other gear changes it totally worked and eventually you get so tuned in to the engine pitch that you can work it out. So it's possible with the minor side effect that it makes any acceleration while synchronizing inadvisable.
2) That's also how cars get stalled and archdukes get assassinated - starting world wars. So I think that's generally not something I'd advocate since I'm all for world peace.
Otherwise, I'd have to go with "no".I don't really understand the comparison to electric windows either, though. Unless you actually cranked your car along the road before there was an electric starter, it's really difficult to compare that to a manual transmission that you use as one of the primary controls while driving.
Now maybe the question is "why have a clutch either - why not just synchronize it by ear?". That one's easy:
1) I've done that (not on my new 991!), and it totally worked. Of course that wasn't while starting in first gear, but on other gear changes it totally worked and eventually you get so tuned in to the engine pitch that you can work it out. So it's possible with the minor side effect that it makes any acceleration while synchronizing inadvisable.
2) That's also how cars get stalled and archdukes get assassinated - starting world wars. So I think that's generally not something I'd advocate since I'm all for world peace.
#69
05-03-2013 | 02:26 PM
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+1
Where do you draw the line with this cry for more involvement? Do you go back to double declutching without synchromesh ?
Someone mentioned, if you feel not involved, if you are bored driving a PDK porsche you are going too slow. He might very well be right. There is sooooo much to do, to optimize and to manage (braking, car balance/weight transfer, grip,...) when driving 9/10 of 10/10ths that I am welcoming the extra time I get with the PDK to do just that. After all, my name is not Lewis Hamilton. So thank you Porsche for a wonderfull gearbox !
Where do you draw the line with this cry for more involvement? Do you go back to double declutching without synchromesh ?
Someone mentioned, if you feel not involved, if you are bored driving a PDK porsche you are going too slow. He might very well be right. There is sooooo much to do, to optimize and to manage (braking, car balance/weight transfer, grip,...) when driving 9/10 of 10/10ths that I am welcoming the extra time I get with the PDK to do just that. After all, my name is not Lewis Hamilton. So thank you Porsche for a wonderfull gearbox !
The argument that PDK leaves more time to focus on your line, braking, grip, etc. clearly does argue that it is less involving than a MT - you have to be less involved with it to have more time for the other things. Whether that is good or bad clearly comes down to preferences and use, so I'm not arguing that Porsche needs to pull PDK off the market, just that I hope that they don't pull MT.
#71
05-03-2013 | 02:38 PM
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Doesn't a comparison mean it should be comparable in some sense?
I'm pretty sure electric windows, electric pumps, LSDs and some other things that have been thrown out there are all meant to convey a sense of general progress, but they really have nothing to do with a drivers ongoing involvement. Now put electric steering out there, maybe people will have an opinion.
I'm pretty sure electric windows, electric pumps, LSDs and some other things that have been thrown out there are all meant to convey a sense of general progress, but they really have nothing to do with a drivers ongoing involvement. Now put electric steering out there, maybe people will have an opinion.
#72
05-03-2013 | 03:56 PM
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This is it right here. I have a stick and I love throwing it around...just plain fun. I also enjoy the fury of the PDK - I'll still have a
on my face driving one. But - I'd like to have the option to get a MT. That being said, I also understand economics rule the planet and economics will drive Porsche to produce a line that makes VW more money. So us MT connoisseurs are going to be relegated to shopping for pre-owned MT 911s...and actually...I'm totally cool with that. Rich (shopping for a 2014 PDK Turbo in late 2017)
#74
05-03-2013 | 10:51 PM
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Now maybe that's easier to argue if your location is Europe. Here in the US where speed limits are primarily governed by speeding ticket revenue potential, I'm happy to have the MT to play with as well.
The argument that PDK leaves more time to focus on your line, braking, grip, etc. clearly does argue that it is less involving than a MT - you have to be less involved with it to have more time for the other things. Whether that is good or bad clearly comes down to preferences and use, so I'm not arguing that Porsche needs to pull PDK off the market, just that I hope that they don't pull MT.
The argument that PDK leaves more time to focus on your line, braking, grip, etc. clearly does argue that it is less involving than a MT - you have to be less involved with it to have more time for the other things. Whether that is good or bad clearly comes down to preferences and use, so I'm not arguing that Porsche needs to pull PDK off the market, just that I hope that they don't pull MT.
Indeed like some of you said, let's agree to disagree sometimes, and be happy we got all these wonderfull choices to pick from, MT, PDK, Cayman, 911 and so on.
Enjoy !
#75
05-03-2013 | 11:12 PM
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To some, myself included, our dopamine trigger is linked to driving the most technologically advanced, highest potential car possible. Knowing that there is nothing limiting you and the best performance other than yourself. Which is why if I were given the choice, I would I choose McLaren over Ferrari everytime. Which is why I would choose GT-R over Corvette everytime and in similar fashion, why I would choose a PDK transmission over a manual one. It is arguable that there are some cars that simply "work" with a manual transmission (Toyota FT-86, Mazda Miata, Ford Mustang come to mind). These cars, with the intent of more soft-edge fun are better suited to a 'lack-of-technology', a less-is-more approach. In the case of a 175k Porsche GT3, it feels cheesy to imagine it with a manual transmission nowadays. I find value and enjoyment in knowing that every measure has been taken to ensure that my car operates at peak efficiency. Just my 0.02c.