991 24-Month Lease Special?
#46
05-06-2013, 03:47 PM
I'm wondering if Porsche has any wiggle room on the buy back amount at the end of a two year lease. With the sweet residual values on the base models that ended March 31st, there will be a boatload of cars coming back in early 2015.
#48
05-06-2013, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by carsrmyvice:3841010
Most Porsche sports car drivers put very little miles each year, your case is an exception not a rule.
Besides, if someone is putting a lot of miles on a sports car, most of the miles are likely highway miles. There are usually much better alternatives to a sports car for mostly highway driving.
I have no doubt your situation fits you well, unfortunately most people are not in your shoes.
Besides, if someone is putting a lot of miles on a sports car, most of the miles are likely highway miles. There are usually much better alternatives to a sports car for mostly highway driving.
I have no doubt your situation fits you well, unfortunately most people are not in your shoes.
Generally speaking I agree if you hardly drive the car, buying/leasing it is not a good idea. But Porsche, similar to other upper level luxury/performance cars, are different than mainstream cars.
A lot of them take the cars to the tracks, don't drive them much on public roads. Others buy them because they have money to spend, no need to get the most use out of the car, in either case, the values are measured differently than someone who buys a Camry.
Last edited by Min911; 05-06-2013 at 04:58 PM.
#49
05-06-2013, 07:57 PM
Leasing does not have to be expensive, if it is a very good and heavily subsidized lease, just the lease on the C2S is not that good.
Generally speaking I agree if you hardly drive the car, buying/leasing it is not a good idea. But Porsche, similar to other upper level luxury/performance cars, are different than mainstream cars.
A lot of them take the cars to the tracks, don't drive them much on public roads. Others buy them because they have money to spend, no need to get the most use out of the car, in either case, the values are measured differently than someone who buys a Camry.
Generally speaking I agree if you hardly drive the car, buying/leasing it is not a good idea. But Porsche, similar to other upper level luxury/performance cars, are different than mainstream cars.
A lot of them take the cars to the tracks, don't drive them much on public roads. Others buy them because they have money to spend, no need to get the most use out of the car, in either case, the values are measured differently than someone who buys a Camry.
#50
05-06-2013, 10:33 PM
Clearly you lack the broader understanding of financing to understand when it does and does not make sense to own an asset. A car is nothing more than a rapidly depreciating asset. As such I view it as purely an expense which I choose to incur for my entertainment.
You would not lease as you drive your 911 very little, 15k miles in 6 years according to your recent post. I intend to drive my 991 18k miles this year alone. I do not reserve my 911 for Sunday brunch at the country club. I park it at hockey games amongst 97 civics and corollas, on the street in so so neighborhoods, and in the first spot I see at the grocery store. It's a car I plan to drive as intended, everyday.
So lets put it this way. Your 997 turbo has cost you roughly 50k in depreciation for the 15k miles you have spent driving it, or $3.33 per mile. I will pay porsche 30k to drive my 991 36,000 miles over the next two years, or $.83 per mile. I realize you are driving a turbo, but I could also say I am going to be in a brand new car the whole time. I could care less about how long the car sits in my garage, I care about how many miles I spend behind the wheel, the condition of the vehicle, and what I am paying to do so. You may also point to the fact that the depreciation curve flattens during the years you are in currently with your 997, to me this is negated by the fact that the vehicle is dated and I would have little interest owning it in lieu of a 991.
I have no idea why you think leases on BMWs are more logical, aside from the friendly service policy I see no logic. While BMW has ridiculously low rates, porsche has inflated residuals combined with generous conquest programs for lessees. I negotiated leases with roughly 7% discount and base rate on my last two BMWs and my porsche. A quick glance at the cost of the vehicle to the cost per mile to lease shows the following.
BMW x5: msrp 68k, sale price 63240, payment 810x36months= 29,160/45k miles= .648 per mile
991: msrp 102k, sale price 94860, payment 1225x24months= 29,400/36k miles
= .816 per mile
102k/68k = 991 cost exactly 50% more
.816/.648= 991 costs 26% more per mile
Sounds reasonable to me. I just can't wrap my head around people who buy and keep long term only to put 2-3k miles a year on a car that was meant to be driven.
You would not lease as you drive your 911 very little, 15k miles in 6 years according to your recent post. I intend to drive my 991 18k miles this year alone. I do not reserve my 911 for Sunday brunch at the country club. I park it at hockey games amongst 97 civics and corollas, on the street in so so neighborhoods, and in the first spot I see at the grocery store. It's a car I plan to drive as intended, everyday.
So lets put it this way. Your 997 turbo has cost you roughly 50k in depreciation for the 15k miles you have spent driving it, or $3.33 per mile. I will pay porsche 30k to drive my 991 36,000 miles over the next two years, or $.83 per mile. I realize you are driving a turbo, but I could also say I am going to be in a brand new car the whole time. I could care less about how long the car sits in my garage, I care about how many miles I spend behind the wheel, the condition of the vehicle, and what I am paying to do so. You may also point to the fact that the depreciation curve flattens during the years you are in currently with your 997, to me this is negated by the fact that the vehicle is dated and I would have little interest owning it in lieu of a 991.
I have no idea why you think leases on BMWs are more logical, aside from the friendly service policy I see no logic. While BMW has ridiculously low rates, porsche has inflated residuals combined with generous conquest programs for lessees. I negotiated leases with roughly 7% discount and base rate on my last two BMWs and my porsche. A quick glance at the cost of the vehicle to the cost per mile to lease shows the following.
BMW x5: msrp 68k, sale price 63240, payment 810x36months= 29,160/45k miles= .648 per mile
991: msrp 102k, sale price 94860, payment 1225x24months= 29,400/36k miles
= .816 per mile
102k/68k = 991 cost exactly 50% more
.816/.648= 991 costs 26% more per mile
Sounds reasonable to me. I just can't wrap my head around people who buy and keep long term only to put 2-3k miles a year on a car that was meant to be driven.
That said .. My choice to drive my car 15K miles is exactly that .. a choice .. and was dictated by myself (the owner) rather than some contract of terms on a car that is in my driveway but isn't really MINE.
I could have driven it 200K miles if I wanted or 5 miles . So can the leasee ..except he paid for a specific set of criteria and if he does MORE or less .. he LOSES even more .
Do not compare a 2007 997 Turbo with your current car . Instead why not compare a 2007 Turbo with a lease on the exact same car at that time . At that time 36K miles cost most 2007 Turbo (130K car) owners 2500 a month .
2500 times 36 = 90,000 . Go ahead ask the guys in the Turbo forum . In fact a friend of mine leased his and realized how bad it was after a year and NEVER will lease another Porsche again .
Using your numbers (where I lost 50Kin depreciation) I am 40K and three years ahead of the game .. and I still have the car !!! Imagine the guy who leased another Turbo after the first . Not too many did that on the Turbo forum . In fact the majority of Turbo owners do in fact buy the car outright. Ask sales they will confirm .. it's a different market.
#51
05-06-2013, 11:47 PM
That said .. My choice to drive my car 15K miles is exactly that .. a choice .. and was dictated by myself (the owner) rather than some contract of terms on a car that is in my driveway but isn't really MINE.
I could have driven it 200K miles if I wanted or 5 miles . So can the leasee ..except he paid for a specific set of criteria and if he does MORE or less .. he LOSES even more .
Do not compare a 2007 997 Turbo with your current car . Instead why not compare a 2007 Turbo with a lease on the exact same car at that time . At that time 36K miles cost most 2007 Turbo (130K car) owners 2500 a month .
2500 times 36 = 90,000 . Go ahead ask the guys in the Turbo forum . In fact a friend of mine leased his and realized how bad it was after a year and NEVER will lease another Porsche again .
Using your numbers (where I lost 50Kin depreciation) I am 40K and three years ahead of the game .. and I still have the car !!! Imagine the guy who leased another Turbo after the first . Not too many did that on the Turbo forum . In fact the majority of Turbo owners do in fact buy the car outright. Ask sales they will confirm .. it's a different market.
I could have driven it 200K miles if I wanted or 5 miles . So can the leasee ..except he paid for a specific set of criteria and if he does MORE or less .. he LOSES even more .
Do not compare a 2007 997 Turbo with your current car . Instead why not compare a 2007 Turbo with a lease on the exact same car at that time . At that time 36K miles cost most 2007 Turbo (130K car) owners 2500 a month .
2500 times 36 = 90,000 . Go ahead ask the guys in the Turbo forum . In fact a friend of mine leased his and realized how bad it was after a year and NEVER will lease another Porsche again .
Using your numbers (where I lost 50Kin depreciation) I am 40K and three years ahead of the game .. and I still have the car !!! Imagine the guy who leased another Turbo after the first . Not too many did that on the Turbo forum . In fact the majority of Turbo owners do in fact buy the car outright. Ask sales they will confirm .. it's a different market.
#52
05-07-2013, 08:02 AM
Preface -- The word Porsche ought not even be used in the same sentence with "making sense" regarding an "investment" . If one was attempting to save money there are plethora of choices of cars (new and used) which can provide transporation at a better value .
That said .. My choice to drive my car 15K miles is exactly that .. a choice .. and was dictated by myself (the owner) rather than some contract of terms on a car that is in my driveway but isn't really MINE.
I could have driven it 200K miles if I wanted or 5 miles . So can the leasee ..except he paid for a specific set of criteria and if he does MORE or less .. he LOSES even more .
Do not compare a 2007 997 Turbo with your current car . Instead why not compare a 2007 Turbo with a lease on the exact same car at that time . At that time 36K miles cost most 2007 Turbo (130K car) owners 2500 a month .
2500 times 36 = 90,000 . Go ahead ask the guys in the Turbo forum . In fact a friend of mine leased his and realized how bad it was after a year and NEVER will lease another Porsche again .
Using your numbers (where I lost 50Kin depreciation) I am 40K and three years ahead of the game .. and I still have the car !!! Imagine the guy who leased another Turbo after the first . Not too many did that on the Turbo forum . In fact the majority of Turbo owners do in fact buy the car outright. Ask sales they will confirm .. it's a different market.
That said .. My choice to drive my car 15K miles is exactly that .. a choice .. and was dictated by myself (the owner) rather than some contract of terms on a car that is in my driveway but isn't really MINE.
I could have driven it 200K miles if I wanted or 5 miles . So can the leasee ..except he paid for a specific set of criteria and if he does MORE or less .. he LOSES even more .
Do not compare a 2007 997 Turbo with your current car . Instead why not compare a 2007 Turbo with a lease on the exact same car at that time . At that time 36K miles cost most 2007 Turbo (130K car) owners 2500 a month .
2500 times 36 = 90,000 . Go ahead ask the guys in the Turbo forum . In fact a friend of mine leased his and realized how bad it was after a year and NEVER will lease another Porsche again .
Using your numbers (where I lost 50Kin depreciation) I am 40K and three years ahead of the game .. and I still have the car !!! Imagine the guy who leased another Turbo after the first . Not too many did that on the Turbo forum . In fact the majority of Turbo owners do in fact buy the car outright. Ask sales they will confirm .. it's a different market.
Clearly, in the absence of a write off, a 991 lessee should be looking at a car under the mrm, ideally a base c2 under the mrm.
#53
05-07-2013, 08:26 AM
I think an argument could be made that buying a car with options taking it over the MRM is not much better than leasing it. Many options will add nothing to the value of the car when you go to sell it, although it will help sell the car faster. The longer you keep it, the less that's a factor.
#54
05-07-2013, 12:58 PM
BMW x5: msrp 68k, sale price 63240, payment 810x36months= 29,160/45k miles= .648 per mile
991: msrp 102k, sale price 94860, payment 1225x24months= 29,400/36k miles
= .816 per mile
102k/68k = 991 cost exactly 50% more
.816/.648= 991 costs 26% more per mile
Sounds reasonable to me. I just can't wrap my head around people who buy and keep long term only to put 2-3k miles a year on a car that was meant to be driven.
BMW has built a huge leasing client base in part because the cars are revised so frequently that it almost takes an attention deficit consumer to buy one (with the exception of the "M" cars ) . By the time one gets his first oil change a a 330i became a 335 or an idrive adjustment made the 1 year old car dated . The depreciation on top tier BMW cars (like 7 series) is so outrageous that a BMW subvented lease program actually keeps the company afloat .
In short .. its a totally diffeent client base than a Porsche owner who looks at a 10 year old 911 and still can see charcteristics retained in former as well as current cars . Take a look as a "Bangled" butted 2002 745i and a 2002 996 Turbo and at least with the Porsche the Gt1 engine made its way into 10 more years of cars (including the Gt2RS) wheras the 7 series is just a bloated relic sedan which looks like it needed a slim fast diet.
#55
05-07-2013, 01:07 PM
not all lease deals are equal though. if i was in the market for a 991 turbo, i would most likely purchase it knowing the residuals would never match the corresponding market values. the base 991, however, seems to hold its value a little better (based on residual percentages) and offers an opportunity to try one for a couple of years with only a fraction of extra cost (money factor which equals 4.8% apr instead of purchasing--assuming no car loan)
Here's my last three just for the heck of it -
2005 --99K MSRP launch car 997S Paid 96K (3K off MSRP) sold it to an independent dealership one year later for 84K . One year cost 12K
2007 997S - MSRP 93K paid 82K and traded it in 3 months later for my Turbo for 78K . 3 months cost 4K .
2009 997S . MSRP was 104 paid 84K (20 percent off deal of the century in a down economy) . Traded it for Cayenne and got 65K last year . 2 years cost 19K .
If i added up all three of those cars it is less than the 56K you are ready to spend on your current 991 base car . I sure hope its "convenient" and worth it to you .
Still have my 2007 997 Turbo . and my 2012 Cayenne.
#56
05-07-2013, 01:53 PM
You are forgetting tax and opportunity cost of capital. Taxes alone in California would have been an additional $22K. Opportunity cost probably somewhere similar so your $56K in reality is closer to $100K. Not saying your decision is wrong, but don't treat people like they are wrong for leasing. I run the numbers on everything I buy or lease and make my decision based on those facts.
#57
05-07-2013, 04:59 PM
You are forgetting tax and opportunity cost of capital. Taxes alone in California would have been an additional $22K. Opportunity cost probably somewhere similar so your $56K in reality is closer to $100K. Not saying your decision is wrong, but don't treat people like they are wrong for leasing. I run the numbers on everything I buy or lease and make my decision based on those facts.
In my opinion it gives even more of a reason to buy the car ONCE and hold it long term.
#58
05-07-2013, 05:56 PM
Never once have I had to do any service to "bring a car into spec". The lease end fee is $350, there is no disposal fee and not sure what finance charge you are talking about. The lease cost at 4% is significantly less than the opportunity cost for investing right now. I would agree that the $139K/$2200 mo that someone was throwing around for a 4S was not a good deal, but it was specific to that deal and not indicative of leases in general. In most cases leasing and buying over a 3 year period is very comparable in overall costs when you do the NPV calculation.
#59
05-07-2013, 06:35 PM
How many Porsches have you owned and traded in or sold ? BTW --I am a 9 time Porsche owner.
Here's my last three just for the heck of it -
2005 --99K MSRP launch car 997S Paid 96K (3K off MSRP) sold it to an independent dealership one year later for 84K . One year cost 12K
2007 997S - MSRP 93K paid 82K and traded it in 3 months later for my Turbo for 78K . 3 months cost 4K .
2009 997S . MSRP was 104 paid 84K (20 percent off deal of the century in a down economy) . Traded it for Cayenne and got 65K last year . 2 years cost 19K .
If i added up all three of those cars it is less than the 56K you are ready to spend on your current 991 base car . I sure hope its "convenient" and worth it to you .
Still have my 2007 997 Turbo . and my 2012 Cayenne.
Here's my last three just for the heck of it -
2005 --99K MSRP launch car 997S Paid 96K (3K off MSRP) sold it to an independent dealership one year later for 84K . One year cost 12K
2007 997S - MSRP 93K paid 82K and traded it in 3 months later for my Turbo for 78K . 3 months cost 4K .
2009 997S . MSRP was 104 paid 84K (20 percent off deal of the century in a down economy) . Traded it for Cayenne and got 65K last year . 2 years cost 19K .
If i added up all three of those cars it is less than the 56K you are ready to spend on your current 991 base car . I sure hope its "convenient" and worth it to you .
Still have my 2007 997 Turbo . and my 2012 Cayenne.
You received a nearly 12% discount off your 07 and a 20% discount off your 09. Those are fantastic deals that are few and far between for most porsche buyers. Not to mention, as we said before you are putting on very very low mileage which makes it possible in the first place.
Either way 09 was a great year to be buying porsche haha
#60
05-07-2013, 06:47 PM
I got my C4S on a 24-month lease special. I would be curious to hear what you guys think of the deal I got:
24 months
7,500 miles per year
126K MSRP
I think we priced the car around 122K
12,500 down
1,425/ month
I was paying about 600/month on my M3, so it was a big jump for me, but I am getting a LOT of car for the money, IMO. I know I put more money down then most people do, but I wanted to keep the payments under 1500. Thoughts?
7,500 miles per year
126K MSRP
I think we priced the car around 122K
12,500 down
1,425/ month