And under revs...

OP - the reason it downshifts is not that it knows you are slowing and is ignoring you, dual clutch transmissions do this to prevent stalling.

It is basically the "you forgot to downshift" feature.

If it is downshifting at high RPM's, I'd look at something not working right (or different setting for your driving).

 

Ok you win. Whatever that means.

 

Only for those with low self-esteem, or insecure in their manhood, who somehow feel it is more masculine to grab a stick all day that isn't theirs.

 

Not fair. Isn't there something derogatory they say about those who win internet arguments???

 

Nicoff, thanks for the honest post. Having read this and seeing Chris Harris' initial review. I am feeling better about PDK in the GT3 and possibly RS.

~A

 

Using the logic of "if shifts for you, it's an automatic" then Chevy Corvette simply has two types of automatics then. The conventional one with a torque convertor and the three pedal one where you push the clutch and it picks the gear based on driving conditions. Like if you want to go from 4th gear to 7th gear, it chooses to put you in 5th. Or if you want to go from 1st gear to second, but you aren't hard enough on the throttle, it will choose 4th for you instead of second. That makes it an automatic, right?

I know this is all semantics, but the issue is not trivial. The current automotive vocabulary is heading towards "clutch" and "clutchless". When someone says a certain car has a dual clutch transmission in it, you know exactly what they are talking about. Like the Ford focus comes in a "manual", a "dual clutch" and an "automatic". We gearheads all understand what those terms mean, but then in casual conversation, some die hard manual driver ends up referring to the dual clutch as an automatic, in a derogatory way, to insinuate he has better skills than the person who drives a dual clutch (even though he subconsciously knows that the computer can shift faster, more accurate and never misses a shift). The problem with this, other than the snide comments being insulting, is that it confuses the general population and they start thinking that a dual clutch is a clutchless transmission.



And on the comment about people claiming to dislike automatics, but not truely disliking them, simply that they haven't driven a good automatic...... Well, I will admit I've always liked automatic transmissions. In things like trucks, the automatic allows you to have a huge mechanical advantage from the torque convertor and it provides better performance when maneuvering heavy loads at low speed and it provides great longevity compared to the clutch in a manual transmission in those same brutal conditions.

But I wouldn't want one in a sports car. The direct engagement of the manual transmission gives you a linear and controllable power delivery. The single clutch and dual clutch manual gearboxes do that same thing, which makes for a pleasant driving experience. The slipping and torque multiplication that occurs in a torque convertor (when it is not locked up) makes the linear delivery of power impossible. This is not a problem when you have a low power to weight ratio, but when you start teetering on the verge of having too much power, that linear and predictable power delivery is what keeps you out of trouble. The pdk can and does give you that linear delivery of power, with full control over when and how the power is delivered and even the choice to free-wheel by disengaging both clutches. Automatic transmission can't do that.

There are really good automatic transmissions out there. I had a Range Rover and with the direct injected 5 liter engine and the 6 speed zf auto with full manual mode and lock up, it is the best automatic I have never driven. It will stay locked up down to 1,200 rpm and you can force it to upshift whenever you want, even at full throttle. It is quite brilliant for being an automatic and the next generation 8 speed zf is what they are using in the Jaguar F type. With that said, I still wouldn't want the 8 speed zf in a sports car! Have you seen the reviews on the F type? All the reviewers are complaining about snap oversteer and not being able to put the power down. I bet the torque converter has some to do with that and I would be curious to see how the F type would perform with a dual clutch transmission instead.

 

Some drivers won't listen to logic because it is an emotional issue for them. Arguing about it is like arguing politics or religion. Pointless and destructive. Let's simply agree to disagree and not cast aspersions on anyone's POV and move on.

 

No no no. No putdown intended and I hope none taken. If so I apologize.

To me PDK is best of breed for automated shifting with the added feature that you can control it manually. It locks up its clutches as firmly as a traditional gearbox, with no fluid coupling because none is needed and it does it at faster than human speeds.

The Porsche manual is outstanding and with practice most owners can shift it very well, matching revs to engine speeds- (even if they to have not use a mode with automated rev matching to get the satisfaction of doing it themselves).

Both make owners happy for more of the same than different reasons. Arguing "better" on any other point seems right up there with arguing about what is the best color choice. That has been settled with silver in any case.

 

No, no offense taken! Just trying to inject some levity. At least we can agree on the Silver!!

 

Faster: sure. More fuel efficient: sure. More control: tossup - the computer is less likely to cause control issues - effectively giving more ability to shift in corners, but that's because it takes away control - and the ability to screw up the shifting - out of human hands.

But there's the purely technical side and then there's the question of what people find fun, and obviously some people enjoy messing with a MT - and whether PDK is dual-clutch, single, magneto-resistive, magic or whatever isn't really the issue at that point, I suspect.

 

No, but their opponents are usually just like Hitler.

 

I think both transmissions are fun. I have the new ZF 8-speed automatic in my Bentley GTC V8 and I rarely use the automatic mode. It's a true automatic but when in manual mode it rarely makes choices for me. I enjoy using it and rarely use S or D anymore.

I had the old school, gated 6-speed in my R8 V10 Spyder and that was just a blast to drive. That was one of my favorite things about the car. And yet, now that they have added the S-Tronic, if I were to buy the R8 today I'd go for the S-Tronic.

I'd love to own and drive the C2S in either transmission but I chose the PDK and I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

 

To me, this is really a debate about performance vs. enjoyment (for some people). The transmissions have advanced to the point where a PDK will have far better performance compared to any mortal human driver -- but that doesn't mean it's "better" in terms of why we like to drive cars. Personally, I think I could learn to enjoy driving a PDK and I won't have any problem switching over to PDK when there's no longer a choice. However, for now, I still get more enjoyment out of driving a manual and working the clutch -- so that is (by definition) better for me at this time.

I'm sure if you look back at all the technical advances in cars, you'll always find examples where some people thought the advancements were better, and others did not. I'll bet it was that way with the first automatics, power steering, ABS, traction control, stability control, electric steering, single/dual clutch transmissions, etc. I know it was that way when the first fly-by-wire systems came out for airplanes. Heck, back in the day, there were probably people who enjoyed turning the crank to start up a car and were very upset when the electric starter motor was introduced .

Don't worry, we'll have this debate again when Google or someone else finally perfects the autonomous car where we won't even have to use a steering wheel anymore. In fact, I'm sure someone could develop the technology for a car to be much faster around the track with minimal input from the driver. Think of it -- the perfect line, the optimal braking and acceleration, smooth inputs, etc. But in the end, it will be more like riding a roller coaster. How much fun would that be?

 

I disagree: this is simply a debate as to whether or not the PDK is an "automatic" transmission. It is automated but it isn't an automatic because it lacks a torque converter and has two clutches. An automatic has no clutches but has a torque converter.

 

"Automated manual" - oxymoron