there may be some mods however this is a very good driver here folks. 7.44 is an excellent time and is just 7-8sec off the 991 S driven by Timo Kluck, a Pro driver.




whats impressive about the 991 Base is how much faster it is vs the 997.2 S.

 

1) The 991 S is NOT the identical car to the base .There are significant improvement upgrades to the S and that is why i feel it ought to be the ONLY entry level 911 instead of having this two tier marketing offering.

2) I am "into" the Gt3 and the Turbo . In fact most guys who buy a gt3 or a Turbo once had some type of entry level 911 .
The Gt3 and Turbo offer greatness . They are the best in each class .
The 991S is the best at street/track versatlity. It's the base car that cant win at anything within this model line and at 100K a pop I feel it should offer more .

3) The Cayman is not a drag race car . It's not as fast as a 911 but it is more balanced , can be parked anywhere , and costs less . It is also the best mid engine Porsche of current times . Just as with the 911 I feel that only one Cayman (the S) ought to be offered .

4) A convertible in itself is a detriment to performance . That's even more of a reason to buy a Boxster over a 911 cab because it is a slower and more balanced roadster for 1/2 the price . That's why it sells so much .
I happen to agree enough to have bought one . Again I feel the "S" ought to be the only offering .

 

There are losts of Boxster drivers who (parphrasing) "don't wish to drag race or impress the kid next door".

My point was never about drag racing or pretentiousness . It was about the cars significance and stand out features within the model line up . The only thing the base car wins at is AFFORDABILITY within the 911 line up and at 100K it's deep priced enough to call overpriced (compared to other 911 cars) .

 

Disagree.

(As an aside, with all this debate on the forums about manual VS PDK, tradition vs technology, I'm surprised that nobody is championing the base as the "purer" form of the 911, doing without all the alphabet soup of PDCC, PASM, whatever whatever whatever)

Of course it would be nice to have the 991S as the only Carrera variant on sale, with all the bells and whistles, for cheaper than they're currently offering it (dream on). But for many, for 84k vs 99k base prices (in the US at least) forms a significant difference in price, and the vanilla Carrera, S or not, has a specific price bracket that it has got to fit into - too cheap, and the cayman gobbles it, too expensive, and it's going to lose market share to the more "exclusive" (to regular people anyway) marques like Astons and Maseratis. And at $125k+ for some configurations of the 991S, I would say that the bounds are being pushed quite far as it is.

IMO The base Carrera only looks "bad" in comparison to the S sibling, and not because it is a bad car - it exceeds the 997.2 S and even GTS in many ways, including performance. Sure there are significant upgrades to the S but I would (if I were a betting man) wager that a significant proportion of S sales come simply from the buyer's desire for red brake calipers. Remember there's a world out there of non enthusiasts buying sports cars too. Choice is good, especially choice at a lower price point that does not compromise performance (which I would argue that it doesn't). I'm all for the 911 being within the reach of more folks. Maybe if more people are able to afford nicely made/handling cars they won't be driving in their damn econoboxes with crap handling.

And for the record I would say a 150k Carrera (even if it is a 4S convertible) is coming extremely close to overpriced, especially if compared with a modestly equipped 95k Carrera, or heaven forbid a base at 84k. Especially compared to a GT3 or Turbo, which are different cars.

By your argument isn't the Turbo also irrelevant because of the Turbo S?

P.S. I think the 918 wins here.

Actually the reason the Boxster sells so much is because it is cheap.

Basically you're saying that you don't like any of the cheaper offerings because they are cheaper. If you want all the bells and whistles, that's fine. Not everyone wants to, or wants to pay for it (regardless of ability to do so).

just my 2c

 

The most "pure" form of the NA 911 is the Gt3 .

A 991S has far more to offer than just red calipers . Downgrading the 991S sounds more like a weak effort to edify the base car's contrast . The simple fact is that a 991S will win at any contest against the base EXCEPT price.

I was quoting someone else when I referred to the Turbo . To Clarrify - Just as with the NA car, the Boxster. The Cayman , as well as the Turbo the "S" ought to be the only offering .

Comparing a cayman and inserting a 918 as a measure is a red herring argument.

I like cheaper but i don't like cheapening a car to fill a market gap . Big difference.

 

Think about this.

I AM an enthusiast ! I've got plenty of hpde under my belt. That's why I am comfortable with the base C2. I don't need the S to keep up with the diesel sedans (like some have complained about not being able to here or on rennlist, not saying that every C2S driver is like that though). I'm still breaking in, restricting myself to 3000rpm at the moment and between 1/4 tot 1/2 throttle, and I still have nooooooo problem to keep up with anyone else in traffic.

Furthermore, I paid 150.000 $ over here for my base C2 with carefully thought out options.

Also, we live in a world were resources are limited. We are running out of oil, co2 emissions are severly penalised by taxes over here and so on. So it might be advisable to open up ones eyes to that reality too instead of thinking every 911 of the next generation should have a V12 mid engined layout with 800 bhp (and even then it will be the worst 911 ever if you read the mags and forums)! Porsche is not building dynosaurs you know. Heck, even Formula 1 is going to 1600cc V6 turbo engines next year. Everyone is downsizing due to economy and ecology.

So please stop slapping the base car as if it were useless and utter crap. It IS basically the same car as your beloved S, give or take some updates, the most important being the S badge on the rear and the red paint on the calipers ! The C2 is not the severely watered down version of the S you make it out to be, it has PLENTY of power for an accomplished driver, and the rest (bar the red brakes) are just options to spec if you really want them.

And as the 991 C2 is better than the outgonig 997S, imagine what piece of crap that must have been for the last decade :-O

 

There are some things you ALL are missing here!

Base carrera is a perfect car, but it is NOT the same as an S.... Base car has a 3.4 boxer while the S has a 3.8 boxer. Both engines have a different character. IMO the base Carrera with it's lower powerd 3.4 engine is the most purest 911 at this moment. When the 911 was introduced back in 1963 it was also "underpowered" compared to other sportscars, but made up by the great chassis, allthough the engine was in the wrong place.
The 3.4 boxer, you have to keep high in revs to get the most out of it and when driving it hard, it feels great. The S has some more torque and is an easier engine for lets call it "GT cruisin". With the S you can do both. With the base it can be done both, but it feels underpowered when driving at normal speeds, at least here in the mountains (just my opinion, and the reason I've taken the S).

The thing that the Boxster S sells more because of te red calipers is the biggest bull**** I've ever heard. If you want red calipers on the base Boxster, you can have it done for lets say $ 500?? It's not necesary to upgrade to a Boxster S, only to get red calipers. Base boxster again has a different engine 2.7 vs 3.4 in the S and has exactly the same different character as the 911. Base is the more pure car, where the S has more power and therefore is easier to drive at normal speeds. (Sounds weird, I know... But it is true, especially for less experienced drivers)

As a conclusion, I would say: Base cars are just perfect and they are a great addition to the line-up. If I lived somewhere else where there were less mountains, I definitely would have chosen the C4 instead of the C4S.

And then there is of course the marketing aspect... The base 911, boxster, cayman make it possible to get more people attracted to buy a Porsche and that is a good thing!

Suzy991

 

That's a fair assesment Suzy !

 

With all the price point talks, I feel bad for Singaporeans who must pay more than usd400k in order to "just" have a 991 C2.

 

Thank you... I didn't have had my coffee yet, so I was in fight-modus LOL

Agree with that....

Suzy991

 

++1

When I was in the Army in 1970 stationed in Stuttgart, I bought a brand new 911T for $6800 with 125HP. When I got on the Autobahn, I thought I was hot stuff. I would cruise at 100-110 mph and if I stayed in southern Germany, all the cars would move over when I came up the left lane(Not so in the North as much). It makes me laugh when I think about that and now the poor base car has 350hp! Not the mention all the other advancements.

 

I had a 997.2 C2S and perceive that, but does anyone know a Nurburgring number?

ChuckJ

 

What difference does it make? What if one of them is 5 seconds faster or slower than the other one over a 14 mile course. Do you really think you will feel that difference in daily driving?

 

EXACTLY!!! +911

That whole thing about laptimes at the Nurnburgring is nothing more than a hype. I bet that there is no one on this forum that can match those times. It is just to say to other people "My car does the Ring faster than yours!"... adolescent behaviour IMO.
A car that does the Ring in 14 minutes can give you the same amount of fun than a car that does it in 7 minutes. It's not all about laptimes....

Suzy991

 

If you love speed and want a sublime driving experience, get a race Porsche. Given the limited ability to drive fast on the street, the base has more than enough power to get the job done and it is functional as a daily driver. Any more is just bragging. I have friends with Ferraris that drive Suburbans to work every day. How purist is that? I have no desire to get anything more than my vert for the street however I am seriously looking at a 991 GT3 Cup Car for junior and I to do some racing in.