I don't consider the 991 base Carrera anything but a very nice car and worthy of its market position. It's just a hair less capable than a 997.1 S, which says a lot considering it has a 3.4 vs. 3.8. I'm not looking for all out speed so I'm more than satisfied with the 3.4. Guess you are too. I knew I was going to trade my 997.2 S this year, and had not planned on doing so as early as I did. But my dealer had a clean barely used and well equipped 981 S with only 1,800 miles, full front Xpel protection ($1800) and tinted for $12,000 under its new MSRP, so I opted to test drive it. Car drove and cornered amazingly, so after getting them to CPO it for free, I bought it. That added 2 more years to the warranty. Not sure how long I'll keep it. I know once I see the GTS I'm going to want it. Maybe in a year.

 

Non-sense.

A 991 is as capable as a 997.2S if not faster in most instances, and better in every way than a 997.1S. A SPASM, SC, PDK, PTV, 20" Wheels Equipped 991 would probably be on par with a 7MT no option 991S. 991S with same options and PDCC is a different story though. A well equipped 991 3.4 with the right options and in the hands of a capable driver is a weapon.

There is some torque to be missed with the smaller 3.4 motor especially since it now comes later in the rev range, but people complain about torque even in the 3.8L 400HP cars.

 

I can promise you that you will lose in any debate with me when it comes to torque, multiplied torque, force, or anything else related to these cars. It's a given the 991 is more advanced than a 997. It has the benefit of newer technology and decisions to move in directions to constantly evolve the 911. But that doesn't mean it's going to outperform previous generations with larger motors and more hp. The base Carrera still won't eclipse the 997.1 S in performance. It's close, but it won't, and that's even PDK versus 6MT. Perhaps the .2 version will. I would think so. As for including 20" wheels into the discussion, why? The larger the wheel the less performance generally speaking. Do you not understand sprung vs. unsprung weight, and rotating mass? Your last statement about the 3.4 Carrera being a weapon is admirable, but the fact remains it comes up short in performance to the 997.1 S (6MT), 997.2 S, and 981 Cayman and Boxster S. Not sure why you and others just can't accept that reality. Porsche elected to deliver the 991 base knowing that. That doesn't take away from it being a great car. But it is what it is. Here's a fun fact for you. Porsche equipped the 3.4 Carrera with a 82mm throttle body and Porsche cripples the 981 Boxster S and Cayman S (3.4) with a 74mm throttle body. And the Boxster S and Cayman S still beat it on track.

 

To the OP:

Hi... I wanted to chime in as I've had some experience with some of your parameters and motivations, so please allow me a lengthy contribution...

I've owned a 987.2 Cayman S - city and out-of-town driving only, no track
I've had a long-term loaner 981 Boxster S - city and out-of-town only
I've had a track day with a Porsche-supplied 981 Cayman S - track only
I now own a 991 C2 base - my city daily driver, out-of-towner and with some track time

Firstly, whether the 991 base is quick enough is purely a subjective matter. I've personally never felt the need for more torque or power in the city... as it is I can't use all that's on tap without crossing the border between spirited driving and recklessness on public roads with other cars driven by less attentive or capable drivers. Subjectively, whether you pick a CaymanS/991C2 I doubt you can perceive that much speed difference in the city. A 991 C2S would be overkill IMHO.

On the track however, the base 991 sometimes (not always) leaves me wanting more speed, but being in a slower car can be great if like me you're not a driving God and every track experience is an opportunity to become a better driver. And this is a good thing, because when you refine your technique and your lines in a slower car and you start passing the faster ones and clock better lap times than them, it's infinitely more rewarding than just having outright speed with all the talent of a heavy right foot.

Secondly PDK is absolutely fabulous. Whilst I can understand how purists would want the involvement of a manual, but a manual can't even come close to PDK for the speed, fuel efficiency and convenience it offers. Especially if you're speccing Sport Chrono, you effectively get 3 gearboxes with PDK, with different personalities to match your mood. I'll continue to buy all future Porsches with PDK without exception. Plus, PDK's coasting function contributes hugely to fuel efficiency. Everyone seems to be blown away by the kind of fuel economy I clock from a 3.4l sports car! OK the start/stop function is annoying but coasting is really something else... few people realise how much coasting happens in regular driving and they've really exploited that.

Lastly, does the 981 drive better than the 991 or vice versa? My emphatic answer is neither. They are just different.

With the mid-engine, you have a sense of agility and liveliness in day-to-day driving because of the weight distribution. When conditions are perfect and you have the opportunity to commit to a corner, there isn't so much as a sensation of left-right weight transfer but one of the car pivoting around your hips. It's sublime. Pushing hard on the track however, it is easy to get caught out because of this very pivot tendency. Unless you are very clean with your inputs, you may find that it's just a hair between understeer and oversteer and it can snap between the two. For me at least, this means that I'm a little less confident and that makes me a little slower. If you are a driving God of course, none of this may matter.

With the rear engine layout, especially with the very sorted dynamics of the 991, you don't get this pivot feeling, but you get something else... that of a beautifully confident and even-keeled handling with immense rear axle traction. It is different, but equally nice, to perceive a sensation of being firmly propelled from behind, of the chassis having a rear squat bias, and once you learn to use it, steering the car by its *** almost. It's a kind of connection that is hard to describe but when you experience it, you will know it and love it. On the track, my clear preference is for the 991 where this characteristic makes for more predictable dynamics. There is almost no understeer unless you are really barrelling into corners having forgotten about the brake pedal. Start braking late, trailbrake towards a late apex, and power out letting all that weight bias on the rear axle with those fat tyres sling-shot you towards the next braking point. There is oversteer if you overcook it, but it never comes suddenly. It's like its always there and just gets progressively more pronounced so it's more controllable and you can use it to good effect for tighter corners. It's no wonder that 911s have been the basis of so many motorsport victories for Porsche because the rear engine layout is so exploitable on the track. I love it!

For me (and this may not apply to you) another reason for switching from 987/981 to 991 was that this is my daily driver and the 991 is more comfortable and practical. Its character is more like a strong, well-trained, experienced 30-year old athlete than a testosterone-charged 19-year old with gobs of talent and youthful energy that needs reigning in. It's got a slightly bigger cabin with rear seats that even if you never use for small humans, is a great convenience for chucking your laptop bag or other stuff and adds to the sense of space around you. It also sounds better... there is far less monotonous tyre roar filling the cabin all the time and it's replaced by that sonorous flat six soundtrack that they've kindly and selectively piped in through the sound symposer. Plus I also happen to think that it looks better!

I hope that helps!

 

Wysiwyg--

Very well written and commented on.

Great comment as well..

"991 is more comfortable and practical. Its character is more like a strong, well-trained, experienced 30-year old athlete than a testosterone-charged 19-year old with gobs of talent and youthful energy that needs reigning in."

 

Back to the 'ring for a second...

German Autobild Test did a comparison which was eye opening. They took what they call an "average driver" (who still is an automotive journalist) against a former LeMans winner racecar driver Klaus Ludwig. The "average driver" behind the wheel of a 500 hp 997 Porsche 911 Turbo lapped the 'ring in 13:28. The pro driver in a 95 hp econocar lapped in 11:16. Then Klaus took the 911 Turbo out and turned an 8:20. While impressive, even Klaus' laptime is well short of Sport Auto's 7:47 Supertest time for the 997 Turbo. This is why 5 seconds between cars is meaningless if even "pro" times can vary over 30 sec.

So until we see the 981S and 991 being driven by the same driver I'm not going to buy that it's faster round the 'ring

 

Thanks, STG958

 

This is probably the best post in the entire thread. wysiwyg you described the difference between the 987 and 991 perfectly. I come from 7 years in a 987 before getting into a 991 and I think your comments about mid vs rear engine are bang on.

I'm still learning to change my driving style to the RWD car. With the Cayman, I felt like you could almost be a little lazy about getting your turn in point right for a corner. It kind of felt like you could still make small adjustments mid-turn and tighten it up if you got it wrong. Like you say, the car seemed to pivot at will around your hips.

With the 991 I find I have to be a little more deliberate with my turn in, but once I 'throw' the car into a corner it just sticks it feels super planted and thrusts your through and out of the corner with much more traction than the Cayman could. In fact I have yet to break the rear wheels lose in a corner in my 991 in corners that the rear wheels would often break loose in my 987.

On the track last year with some demo 911s I was absolutely blown away by how much traction these cars got out of corneres. Driving myself and being driven by the instructors I couldn't believe how hard they could load it up and it would just stick, stick, stick.

Anyway, great post wysiwyg.

 

Non-sense again.

It is not an argument about torque, not sure why you are bringing it up. You have to include the 20" Wheels in the discussion as they must be optioned for the PTV.

 

Thanks hawc. Yes that rear traction is really something isn't it? I still love the Caymans and Boxsters though but I know I'm more comfortable AND quicker in a 991. The lap times don't lie.

 

Well in Germany that's the way they do it there, and the automotive industry is fine with it and they find the results credible. So much so that every manufacturer of high end cars has a facility at the venue. Nurburgring is that important to them. But ultimately you'll never get what you're asking for, and they and the world seem fine with it. I suppose you want a controlled tire too, and a panel of experts to determine which options are permissible for the test to keep the playing field level?? It's not going to happen.

You need to let go, and accept their ways as they at least have an approach which gives consumers a pecking order of sorts. You should be happy in that their efforts take the spec sheet out of the equation. Otherwise you'd all be driving the latest torque-monster M3/4. But ultimately, these drivers have more laps around the ring than you do trips to the fridge. They yield outcomes that others in their industry readily accept. In fact they're paid to do this. You can argue 1 or 2 seconds based on traffic or conditions or perhaps even driver, but often the ring is closed for these sessions. What they're not going to do is spend a month there until they get every millisecond shaved off. They go there, perform their work, and set times until they believe they have achieved what the car is capable of. In the case of the 991 C2, Dag Johnsen said he might be able to break 8 minutes, implying if he kept at it for who knows how long. But that would be a deviation to their standard practice. I'm not so sure why it bothers you so much that the Cayman S is 7.5 seconds quicker around the ring than the 991 C2 based on their way of establishing times. I don't find it hard to believe considering how composed it is being a mid engine car (which based on the 918 is the current direction of Porsche's all-out effort). Just be glad Porsche didn't give the Cayman S the same 82mm throttle body. Instead of 7.5 seconds faster, the gap would be twice that. Remember the Cayman S has both a chassis and weight advantage. At least the 991 C2 beats the first generation Cayman S (by 3.5 seconds). Happy now?

BTW, in reference to your average driver rabbit hole you dragged me down, you have to be careful when you're comparing lap times as it's either a full lap or a shorter BTG lap (bridge to gantry). All official lap times are full distance. People who pay are setting BTG laps. Unless you're certain you're comparing apples to apples, it's best to not make comparisons. bccars fell into that trap.

Anyway, believe what you want. But those times will never change and will be the official times forever, and in my opinion seem very reasonable, especially considering the Cayman S and Boxster S times are so close.

The 991 C2 needs PDCC and PCCB to be more competitive, and Michelin cup tires too. That would be a fun car to drive.

 

Guys, thx for all the meaningful posts..my sincere gratitude to all of you for providing and typing out all your knowledge. Reading everything here..I'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps I should go with the 981 instead of the 991 for my first foray into the Porsche world..It seems more "forgiving". I drove it on the track and I was very scared so I cannot imagine the experience on the 991 with tail swinging out..Not to mention it's a little lighter on the wallet

I hope I didnt waste your time contributing to this thread..

 

There is no right or wrong choice. Both are great. I choose the 991 this time. It may be the 981 next time, particularly given the price differential. Actually, if online rumors about a turbocharged four cylinder lightweight Boxster derivative with approximately 350 hp are even reasonably accurate, it may well be next.


Enjoy your new Porsche whichever it is.

 

I love the caymans and boxsters. But for me, I'd go with a base 911. I have a carrera that I use as my daily driver and I am more than happy with it. The PDK transmission, definitely helps with reaching the right gear to get you where you want to go. Yes, its not a torque monster, but it is a very satisfying car.

 

Sorry to hear that.

Will just leave you with a few pics of the 991 you've decided not to get.





















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