i live in the northeast.

ive been reading and talking to some people about summer tires in below freezing temps. ive been getting conflicting info. so im looking to hear from those who live in this area or any other area that has severe cold weather at times.what has your experience been?

is it a legitimate concern, and are some tire brands more prone to failure then others? and is the problem driving in the cold , keeping the car parked it in the cold, or both?

im aware of the winter tire and wheel swap, with the change in seasons, but im not looking to go that route. i also have an suv for winter weather. in spite of that i would like to start the car up and take short rides at low to moderate speed on local roads to charge up the electrical system as well as give the tires some exercise. i would only do so on dry road surfaces, but temps will be below freezing, and sometimes dropping down to single digits.

 

Short answer, summer tires are meant to be driven in warm weather and issues arising from driving them in cold temps (cracking, chipping, etc) are not covered by warranty and could be a safety issue. Read more here.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=273

 

I used the P0s that came on my car through two winters and the MPSS on it now through 2 winters in the DC area. Trips were limited to weekend jaunts in dry weather at temps down to the high 20s and at lower speeds than when the weather was 40 or above. Never any problems with cracking, chipping or anysuch physical deterioration.

But- and its a BIG but, they do not handle anywhere near as well at low temps as at 40+ temps. Moreover emergency stopping distances go way up- as in easy to slide/skid.

I dumped the summer tires that came on my daily driver after the first time I had to drive it in the snow. If you intend to or need to drive the Porsche much at temps below 40, best to get at least all weather tires for it.

PS the Mich AS3s on the DD are fantastic tires- like all weather Super Sports. If they had sizes for the 991, I just might go for them year round.

 

thanks for the replies, although i was hoping for a bit more of a response.

what do porsche dealers do in freezing temps , do they cease test drives?
and they must store some of their new and pre owned inventory outdoors exposed to below freezing temps for extended periods of time.

we are seeing a continual expansion of summer or high performance tires on performance cars , and the trend only continues to grow. that being the case more and more car owners will be in this situation. who really wants to spend all the money on a performance car and then have to go out and buy 4 additional tires and wheels. store them and have service swap them out twice a year?

because currently thats whats being recommended unless you can garage the car for the winter, or live in a climate where its a non factor. and if you could garage the car for the winter wouldnt you want to take it out to maintain the battery and tires?

tire companies have developed run flat tires , as well as tire sensors, to make the driving experience more convenient and to to provide safety and peace of mind. why are they not developing a tire that can offer max performance and provide it year round in all types of climate conditions? they have had a good number of years to develop it, are they even attempting it? because i have to think tire makers like things just as they are with 8 tires per car, as opposed to 4. and you can ad to that owners having to replace cracked tires that tire makers state is not their responsibility to replace.

im aware all season tires would reduce performance. but i would be willing to accept that, as i think others would because it would offset having to purchase a second set of wheels and tires or garaging the car in the winter. snow tires also reduce performance, yet many are willing to accept that simply to use their car during the winter. how about they take a summer and a winter tire, take the best from each and create a new super tire .

we have had performance cars long before summer tires. im not even aware when they came on the scene. i have had two porsches in the 70s and 80s when summer tires were unheard of. when they first became available you had a choice. now you seem to have no choice . at least ive yet to find any. i have friends with a late model corvette ,mercedes sl, and bmw 6 series and all run on season tires. ive searched for all season in porsche 19 or 20 inch sizes for base carrera coupe and none are available. can i slightly deviate from factory tire size and still fit factory wheels?

 

If it's not been clear so far, summer tires have compounds that turn very, very hard in cold weather. My wife didn't think she needed to change her tires until she drove on the summer tires in below-40 temperatures. They turn to big blocks of inflexible plastic.

What Porsche dealers do is change to all-season or winter tires. It's not complicated.

Compared to the overall cost of ownership of a 991, an extra set of tires isn't very expensive. They don't add any extra expense, actually, since every mile driven on the winter tires is a mile not driven on the summer tires, and thus delays the day when you replace the summer tires.

Buying an extra set of wheels and TPMS sensors for the winter tires is an expense - but we did it, and it's not unusual. It cuts down on the logistics of swapping tires significantly. You don't have to go expensive for the winter wheels, though there are some aftermarket brands you want to avoid.

The tires companies did come out with a set of tires that you can drive year round. They're called "All Season Tires." If they could make them equal in performance to summer tires, they would. Simply because it would be a huge competitive advantage. You're asking for a significant breakthrough in materials science without understanding anything about polymers.

Snow tires are another animal. All season tires can stand cold temperatures, but snow traction is generally terrible compared to a real snow tire. If you actually drive on snow, it's a serious safety concern, not just a matter of slightly better numbers, unlike summer tires vs. all-seasons. The Tire Rack has an example - stopping distances on ice in snows vs. all season was 21 feet vs. 39.

Regardless of how you feel about summer tires, if you expect actual snow and ice rather than just freezing temperatures, snow tires are worthwhile. They're not dangerous to drive in summer, but they'll wear quickly compared to all-seasons or summer tires once it gets warm.

"Summer tires were unheard of" in an era when people were asking a lot less of cars.

Yes, there's a certain amount of wiggle room in tire size vs. wheels. Sidewalls do bend a bit. Generally speaking it's around +/- 25mm vs the standard tire width for the wheel. Don't guess, though, talk to a professional about what will actually fit.

 

The temperature is the issue; below 37f a summer tire is a risk; the road surface temp. not the tires. If you can't determine if the road temp is near 40f I'd suggest the 911 stay in the garage.
I just pulled my snows off yesterday and air temp today is at 45f but it was below 25f earlier. Measuring the asphalt temp in front of my 911 today; in sun 51f, shade 44f.
There are several road zones I know to be cold enough to cause the road temp to remain below 37f so I'll stay clear of those with the summer rubber (until I can be certain the temp. is above 40f). You can't trust the car's temp gauge so care is essential if you want to push the car at temps near forty. I plan to run the pcar today but later after the temp nears 50f.

A few years ago I did a long roadtrip w/ the 911; in North Carolina we climbed Clingman's Dome at 11am. Though the temp at the base was 55f at the summit it was snowing. I took great care traveling down the mountain even though the road surface was only wet. The car temp said the air was 34f. I'm not certain of the asphalt temp that day at +6,000 feet.

http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index...=26&tab=Winter

I suggest you speak with a repre of Tirerack regarding the sizing issue; and plan on a second set of wheels.

 

thanks for the replies


it appears michelin is aware of the potential market and is taking the lead in this new type of tire. it was introduced in 2015, and its currently only available in europe and with sizes limited to 15,16,and 17 inch. but it has good reviews ,and hopefully a promising future that will include expansion to the world wide market and additional size options.

https://www.goodwood.com/grrc/road/n...-winter-tyres/

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...me-changer.htm

http://www.michelin.com/eng/media-ro...int-in-history

 

You're reading far too much into some advertising.

The CrossClimate tires you linked are some all-season tires with better-than-average snow performance. Possibly up there with a good pair of snow tires. It's hard to say, since the only snow tires they compared them to were Michelin Alpin 5's, and I have no idea where those rank as snow tires. "As good as snow tires" is quite unusual for all-seasons, though.

They're not remotely performance tires, let alone summer performance tires. The article you linked compares them to a couple of other all-season tires. When the compared tire is called "Michelin Energy Saver+," that should be a clue that they're not suitable for mounting on a 991.

When you checked sizes, you should also have noticed the widths and profiles they're available in, not just diameters. They're 185-225mm and profiles are mostly in the 60's. The closest they come to performance tire sizes is the 225/45 R17's, which is narrow by sports car standards. By comparison, a 991 normally takes 285/35-19's or 305/30-20's in the rear, and 235/40-19's or 245/35-20's in front.

EDIT: I took another look at the video you linked. From left to right they're Michelin Primacy 3 (a low-performance summer tire), CrossClimates, Goodyear 4Seasons (an all season tire), and Continental Wintercontact TS850's (a proper snow tire). The snow tires visibly outperform the CrossClimates in the snow ramp test in the video. What I'd really want to see is braking distance on snow and ice.

 

i think you are missing the big point..... they wont crack.

if available here in sizes for my vehicles i would try them.
i have never had winter tires on any of my vehicles.
ive always had all season, and i have not had any problems.

these have to be an improvement over all season or michelin wouldnt have invested the money and released them. in the slim chance they aernt i would park the car during snow and or ice. but ,and this is a big but, i could use the car in below freezing temps, which is much more common then snow and ice in my area .that alone to me is a major improvement.

remember this is only the first step. as michelin has been working on development i would think other tire makers have been also. if they havent been they will be now or they will see michelin dominate and monopolize the market. and the biggest challenge has already been eliminated ,they wont crack. other tire makes can experiment with differant thread pattern. and if the tire appeals to the public,and i feel it will, it will be a big market.

whats now needed is world wide release and more sizing options. the tires only appear to be a year old, they are in their infancy. hopefully michelin soon accelerates their expansion. they limited their sizing to appeal to the masses, and more easily access the untapped market. if they are embraced they will eventually produce sizes for high performance sport cars,and suv's,etc.

 

No, no I'm not. That's not a big point at all, since it's a characteristic of any all-season tire. The CrossClimate brand is just another all-season tire. The advertising has convinced you that they're a breakthrough, but the only actual demonstration video we have doesn't support that.

If you don't drive on snow, you don't need snow tires. All-season tires are for people who live in cold climates that don't see snow or ice on the roads. Because, for example, the roads are well plowed and salted. Or because it gets cold but actual snow is uncommon.

If you do drive on snow, there's a serious safety advantage to actual snow tires. If you haven't encountered a problem, you've just been lucky.

These tires aren't performance tires. The demand for low-cost, low-performance tires in performance-tire sizes is nonexistent. Michelin developed them for the sedan market, not the 911 market, and they simply are not going to make them in wider, lower profiles.

 

Are you serious?? Your Porsche dealer/s actually change out tires on all their cars that have summer performance tires (that would be all of their Porsche sports cars) once the winter arrives? Where do they store all those summer tires and how do they ensure that they get put back on the car they came off of? Never heard of this. What dealer is this?

 

I've never actually witnessed it, since I've only been there in warm weather, but what exactly do you think they do in winter? Give up on selling cars, or let customers damage tires and very likely wreck cars? You know this is going to be a bigger issue the farther north you look.

"Where do they store those tires" - uh, tires don't take up that much space. For that matter, when we purchased the Cayman, they offered to rent me space for our alternate set, at $150 / year. We declined.

 

My guess is they do nothing regarding changing tires in the winter. They just tell caution customers to be careful. I live in Raleigh, NC, and while it is certainly not as cold as the northeast, we have our share of cold days and my dealer never changes out tires to winter tires. I had just assumed since you said in your earlier post that dealers in cold climates change tires to winter tires, that you actually knew that they did this, not just assumed that they do.

For what it is worth, I have been driving high performance cars for about 30 years in Raleigh, mostly as daily drivers until I retired a few years ago, and never changed tires to winter tires. I never drove the cars in ice for snow, but drove them plenty of days when the high was at or near freezing, and nighttime lows well below freezing. Never once did I damage or crack a summer tire or be in a situation where I felt I could not control the car.

I saw that you live in Boston. I didn't think about the possibility of you never being there in the cold months.

 

"Never once did I damage or crack a summer tire or be in a situation where I felt I could not control the car."

thats more the way im thinking.
i dont deny cases of tires cracking but i dont know how widespread the condition is, or is not, as well as what factors played a part.

i have read that pirelli p zero seems to be more prone to this problem. again i dont know how valid that is. it would be helpful to know how many documented cases of failure there has been, along with a break down of tire brands.

i would also think the cracking or other damage would be the result of not properly allowing the tires to warm up from the heat generated by road friction before pushing the car.

or have tire cracks developed from cars simply being parked during freezing temps over the coarse of the winter. and when tires did crack did they fail or were the cracks superficial and cosmetic with no failures .and if many porsche dealerships store their cars outdoors in freezing temps, are they selling cars with cracked tires ,or putting $1,000. worth of new tires on them at time of sale. lots of questions and uncertainty but little data to get definitive answers.

i will not get a second set of wheels and tires ,nor will i drive the vehicle in snow or ice.
i have never had a second set of wheels or winter tires in my life. and at age 62 im not about to start now. ive been driving since 1970 and have lived in nyc that whole time. i have had a number of cars that have included porsche, bmw, cadillac, infiniti,and acura i never had summer tires and never felt deprived of any performance. i enjoyed them all.

my plan for the winter months would be limited short drives on dry local roads at speeds around 30 mph .

 

"my plan for the winter months would be limited short drives on dry local roads at speeds around 30 mph"

Then stop worrying and just do it. Summer tires don't crack or break at the temps and conditions you will encounter. They need to be driven as if you totally understand that they don't handle or brake as they would if it were above 40F and you were pushing hard in corners or had to brake suddenly. That said, they are near useless and get downright dangerous if there is snow or ice.