Throttle Steering and Trail Braking the TT
#16
10-17-2007, 10:11 PM
For my 2 cents worth I race a GT3RS and a track a modded road registered 996TT in club days and the techniques are quite different.
The race car is much lighter, set up with very stiff suspension (1500lb springs and 4 way afjustable shocks), slicks etc. and can readilly take light trail braking to counter turn in understeer. The key with a 911 is to concentrate on earliest possible application of the throttle and not mid corner speed so the apex is going to be later than that for a front or mid engine car so as to allow for the straighter exit line/earlier throttle.
The TT is comparatively heavy and soft and I find trail braking more difficult in that it is easier to upset the balance. Maybe some more practice would help but I suspect the key is "smooth is fast" which is hard to do if you are effectively forcing turn in oversteer to combat the understeer. IMHO it requires a smoother application of everthing but the concentration is still on the early power.
Any 911 in a mixed field is at a disadvantage from turn in to apex but comes into it's own with all that weight over the rear wheels allowing much earlier application of the throttle.
The race car is much lighter, set up with very stiff suspension (1500lb springs and 4 way afjustable shocks), slicks etc. and can readilly take light trail braking to counter turn in understeer. The key with a 911 is to concentrate on earliest possible application of the throttle and not mid corner speed so the apex is going to be later than that for a front or mid engine car so as to allow for the straighter exit line/earlier throttle.
The TT is comparatively heavy and soft and I find trail braking more difficult in that it is easier to upset the balance. Maybe some more practice would help but I suspect the key is "smooth is fast" which is hard to do if you are effectively forcing turn in oversteer to combat the understeer. IMHO it requires a smoother application of everthing but the concentration is still on the early power.
Any 911 in a mixed field is at a disadvantage from turn in to apex but comes into it's own with all that weight over the rear wheels allowing much earlier application of the throttle.
This is good stuff.
#17
10-17-2007, 10:20 PM
I don't think you (silver and joe) are getting it...
It's about the weight transfer.
Let's all assume that we are competent drivers - none of this "if you nail the exit" If you aren't absolutley nailing your marks, you shouldn't even be attempting trail braking. Lets also assume that we are on line (yes there is only one line) and that we are consistent.
What the article is saying (these are PROs running SUPERCUP hint hint) is that braking early (and not standing the car on it's nose) then back *on the gas* throughout the corner is gonna win in a Porsche.
I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. I know what I do, and I know what everybody says - but these guys are faster than me, and what they say is "Rock the chair back a bit - early - and that supports the fact that Porsches stick better *all the way through the corner* with positive throttle.
Another point - How good (consistent) are you with trailbraking? I don't know about you - I think I'm pretty fast, but if I'm haulin down Mid-OH at 155 to a 70 mph corner - it is damn'd hard to nail braking point, turn in, entry speed, amount of rotation, smooth brake release, etc in a consistent, repeatable manner.
Remember - what trailbraking really is -
We are inducing a spin intentionally that we intend to catch in the middle of the corner with throttle application to then stick the rear and abate the spin.
Thank you very much, but I know I practice, but I can't get it to where I'm anywhere near the limit when I do it, and if I don't get it, I'm way *over* the limit, and have to mitigate to recover and lose all the advantage I was trying to gain with the technique.
And I'm not saying I go through a corner slower - I think I'm just a fraction *faster* because I have much higher control over precise entry and corner speeds.
FWIW - YMMV
Deetz.
It's about the weight transfer.
Let's all assume that we are competent drivers - none of this "if you nail the exit" If you aren't absolutley nailing your marks, you shouldn't even be attempting trail braking. Lets also assume that we are on line (yes there is only one line) and that we are consistent.
What the article is saying (these are PROs running SUPERCUP hint hint) is that braking early (and not standing the car on it's nose) then back *on the gas* throughout the corner is gonna win in a Porsche.
I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. I know what I do, and I know what everybody says - but these guys are faster than me, and what they say is "Rock the chair back a bit - early - and that supports the fact that Porsches stick better *all the way through the corner* with positive throttle.
Another point - How good (consistent) are you with trailbraking? I don't know about you - I think I'm pretty fast, but if I'm haulin down Mid-OH at 155 to a 70 mph corner - it is damn'd hard to nail braking point, turn in, entry speed, amount of rotation, smooth brake release, etc in a consistent, repeatable manner.
Remember - what trailbraking really is -
We are inducing a spin intentionally that we intend to catch in the middle of the corner with throttle application to then stick the rear and abate the spin.
Thank you very much, but I know I practice, but I can't get it to where I'm anywhere near the limit when I do it, and if I don't get it, I'm way *over* the limit, and have to mitigate to recover and lose all the advantage I was trying to gain with the technique.
And I'm not saying I go through a corner slower - I think I'm just a fraction *faster* because I have much higher control over precise entry and corner speeds.
FWIW - YMMV
Deetz.
You cant apply the handling characteristic from a race car to a road car totally as apples to apples, they are worlds apart, especially with a 996 TT.
If you are trail braking you are braking later, which is an advantage going into the turn (just imagine if your brakes were better, you would be braking later anyways).
Next you turn in while still on the brakes effectively reducing the time alloted for power understeer which is prevelant in the 996 TT. So you turn better and can carry even more speed through the turn. Remember you are now not braking as hard and have still trailed off the brakes before the apex and you're still back on the gas soon.
I think trail braking will yeild the most results in sweepers, where you have slowed down and have to power around the corner. The TT wants to push, while you do so. If you trail brake well into the corner (which will take some skill) you are reducing that time you are pushing around the corner.
#18
10-17-2007, 11:34 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: VANCOUVER, BC, CANADA
Posts: 489
Rep Power: 37 
so then would you agree that you still use trailbraking regardless of vehicle?
also, would you agree then it is the smoothiness of transition from brake--> turn in--throttle--exit that is more important?
also, would you agree then it is the smoothiness of transition from brake--> turn in--throttle--exit that is more important?
#19
10-17-2007, 11:45 PM
That smoothness is always important, especially if you have a stiff swaybar. You can induce oversteer pretty easily if you want to.
#20
10-17-2007, 11:48 PM
Yes - but only for the very start of the turn in phase with the TT. More a case of rolling off the brake as you turn in. It's better to be a little slower if necessary so that there is little or no understeer so you can accurately handle the mid corner phase and not be stuggling with either under or oversteer when getting back on the gas. Controlling power oversteer with throttle modulation is much qicker than waiting for the understeer to go away.
#21
10-18-2007, 12:02 AM
Yes - but only for the very start of the turn in phase with the TT. More a case of rolling off the brake as you turn in. It's better to be a little slower if necessary so that there is little or no understeer so you can accurately handle the mid corner phase and not be stuggling with either under or oversteer when getting back on the gas. Controlling power oversteer with throttle modulation is much qicker than waiting for the understeer to go away.
This guy knows what he's talking about. I really like to trail down to the same cornering speed I would have had anyways.
Lets say you are braking at 250 ft for a turn, but when you trail you brake at 200 feet in that same turn, that's 50 feet more of coasting or gas (depending on how you do it).
Key note "We have established here that late apexing is better for 911's so you can get on the straight line acceleration and use the extra grip" this means you will have to coast more or go deeper in straight line braking to reach the late apex.
Instead of using a slow throttle application to control the understeer, you are now getting the car turned so you can go straight from brakes to almost full throttle.
At least that's how it works for me, shortening the straight braking zone, while going the same speed into the turn but loading the front tires while turning for better turn in and earlier (more ) throttle application on exit.
#22
10-18-2007, 12:10 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 4,205
Rep Power: 204 
As much as I love these types of threads...I think they are not very helpful on an individual basis as, depending on ones overall talent level and perspective, one person, who may SEEM like they dont know more about it or may be saying things that seem a bit off, may acutually have it better as they have found the best mix of speed into, through and out of the corner...its hard to exactly state what I mean...but...I guess its that there are SOOOO many variables (not one of us has the same setup) that one car doing one thing, may actually be quicker than another by using techniques that arent quite kosher because they get more out of their car in other ways...so when I may trailbrake into a corner, another might want to be wary with my setup, Im allowed a conciderable amount more speed which affects my turn in "harshness", throttle app...etc...
That said...ARG (obviously) has his **** down!
That said...ARG (obviously) has his **** down!
#23
10-18-2007, 12:18 PM
As much as I love these types of threads...I think they are not very helpful on an individual basis as, depending on ones overall talent level and perspective, one person, who may SEEM like they dont know more about it or may be saying things that seem a bit off, may acutually have it better as they have found the best mix of speed into, through and out of the corner...its hard to exactly state what I mean...but...I guess its that there are SOOOO many variables (not one of us has the same setup) that one car doing one thing, may actually be quicker than another by using techniques that arent quite kosher because they get more out of their car in other ways...so when I may trailbrake into a corner, another might want to be wary with my setup, Im allowed a conciderable amount more speed which affects my turn in "harshness", throttle app...etc...
That said...ARG (obviously) has his **** down!
That said...ARG (obviously) has his **** down!
Of course, tires, tire pressures, spring rates, dampening, sway bar settings, camber, weight and power can all individually have a major effect so you have to take what you can and leave the rest behind.
besides, if anyone thinks they can go out and implement three new techniques on their first turn, they are smoking, you do lots and lots of laps, and sometimes you stumble on to new techniques in certain corners that fit your car.
Unless you are getting pro instruction every time you go out, every bit of info can help you be a better driver.
#24
10-18-2007, 12:37 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 4,205
Rep Power: 204
Unless you are getting pro instruction every time you go out, every bit of info can help you be a better driver.[/QUOTE]
True and why I am doing so.
I dunno, I just find it that based on your exact experiences and talent, one person saying that X and X may just be something thats completely obvious and old to one but so new to others it makes them slip up seriously.
Like the one individual stating that you should be trailbraking if you dont know the line...and only "one" line...well...thats a red flag to me...haha, there is NO real "line" through a track when your racing...just places of inhabitants and you just have to know how to be fast in all of em.
I guess its just a touchy subject when its all words and no actions or "demos" to really show whats going on and how things are happening at what speeds. Cause even something like 4 pounds less pressure will drastically change a cars handling characteristics through a corner and may dictate different methods of driving.
EX here
Just changing the tire pressure and compound Hoosier R6 around corner
MPSC with different psi around same corner (note completey different line through the corner)
and thats just with similar but different tires and different PSI...
that said, It is great that advanced topics like trailbraking make it to these boards. Im still waiting for left foot braking (another HUGE help in alleviating understeer and getting on the power way early in a corner further maximizing the porsches advantages).
True and why I am doing so.
I dunno, I just find it that based on your exact experiences and talent, one person saying that X and X may just be something thats completely obvious and old to one but so new to others it makes them slip up seriously.
Like the one individual stating that you should be trailbraking if you dont know the line...and only "one" line...well...thats a red flag to me...haha, there is NO real "line" through a track when your racing...just places of inhabitants and you just have to know how to be fast in all of em.
I guess its just a touchy subject when its all words and no actions or "demos" to really show whats going on and how things are happening at what speeds. Cause even something like 4 pounds less pressure will drastically change a cars handling characteristics through a corner and may dictate different methods of driving.
EX here
Just changing the tire pressure and compound Hoosier R6 around corner
MPSC with different psi around same corner (note completey different line through the corner)
and thats just with similar but different tires and different PSI...
that said, It is great that advanced topics like trailbraking make it to these boards. Im still waiting for left foot braking (another HUGE help in alleviating understeer and getting on the power way early in a corner further maximizing the porsches advantages).
#25
10-18-2007, 12:48 PM
I agree buddy. However I think different principals apply to different tracks, I know for sure when I get to VIR I'll be looking to you and Mikelly for advise on taking the turns, and I know I can give you some insight at road atlanta.
I think there are quite a few of us know how to take what hints we get and apply them to a solid foundation of driving fundamentals. Of course when someone says x technique works, they should in turn explain where are why, because the same technique doesnt work at every track and corner.
I think we just have to be careful in what we say, and people readin have to be even more careful in what they take out of it and try. But I love these discussionsc and since we have similar cars, it's the best we are going to find interms of techniques that apply to OUR car.
That's why we include all the details like tire presrure adjustments, sway setting etc so the person can get an overall picture to work with. And always encourage people to move slowly. I tracked for a year + before even trying to heel toe, then a few more months I have added throttle steer (actually happened circumstancially) and trail braking. But I have a firm grip on controlling my car, and can hold a power slide and recover the car from darn near sideways, when you can handle the car when it gets wiggly and out of control, then you can try new stuff. IMO, but still very slowly.
I think there are quite a few of us know how to take what hints we get and apply them to a solid foundation of driving fundamentals. Of course when someone says x technique works, they should in turn explain where are why, because the same technique doesnt work at every track and corner.
I think we just have to be careful in what we say, and people readin have to be even more careful in what they take out of it and try. But I love these discussionsc and since we have similar cars, it's the best we are going to find interms of techniques that apply to OUR car.
That's why we include all the details like tire presrure adjustments, sway setting etc so the person can get an overall picture to work with. And always encourage people to move slowly. I tracked for a year + before even trying to heel toe, then a few more months I have added throttle steer (actually happened circumstancially) and trail braking. But I have a firm grip on controlling my car, and can hold a power slide and recover the car from darn near sideways, when you can handle the car when it gets wiggly and out of control, then you can try new stuff. IMO, but still very slowly.
#26
10-18-2007, 01:59 PM
Hey Deetz, you know darn well you're good at pushing that arena red missile. Waiting for you to flash that puppy. Hope to see you at mid-ohio sometime, I'll be there for the last event this November.
#27
10-18-2007, 02:01 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Posts: 710
Rep Power: 61
Good stuff guys...
Trail braking the TT isn't easy and there's no need for it in many places, but I like your idea. With it it's easy to save some time...I started doing it bit unconsciously, only a little bit in some places.
What I like about track driving is that to achieve the same lap time you can do it in many ways. That's why it's so fun to drive with drivers who have the same speed!
The Nordschleife is a great example, in some corners/sections there's different lines and it depends a bit on the driver and the car what's the correct way to drive it. How the car handles, in what kind of situations near/at the limit you're comfortable etc...
For me track driving is a way of art - but the results can be measured!
Trail braking the TT isn't easy and there's no need for it in many places, but I like your idea. With it it's easy to save some time...I started doing it bit unconsciously, only a little bit in some places.
What I like about track driving is that to achieve the same lap time you can do it in many ways. That's why it's so fun to drive with drivers who have the same speed!
The Nordschleife is a great example, in some corners/sections there's different lines and it depends a bit on the driver and the car what's the correct way to drive it. How the car handles, in what kind of situations near/at the limit you're comfortable etc...
For me track driving is a way of art - but the results can be measured!
#28
10-18-2007, 02:13 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: VANCOUVER, BC, CANADA
Posts: 489
Rep Power: 37
all above are right...
prime example...
i was told by two different "instructors" two different lines on the same track/corner on the same day... funny thing is MY line was different from both.... but similar to other racers?!
go figure... ther is more than one way to drive a track...and oonly true sector times will tell you which is faster....
get a data logger.... take multiple runs at each technique... then do a sector overlay.... or split time chart.... then and only then there is NO mistake...
i love data loggers....if i could only get a nice one in my car!!
prime example...
i was told by two different "instructors" two different lines on the same track/corner on the same day... funny thing is MY line was different from both.... but similar to other racers?!
go figure... ther is more than one way to drive a track...and oonly true sector times will tell you which is faster....
get a data logger.... take multiple runs at each technique... then do a sector overlay.... or split time chart.... then and only then there is NO mistake...
i love data loggers....if i could only get a nice one in my car!!
#29
10-18-2007, 03:41 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Posts: 710
Rep Power: 61
Get PerformanceBox...
Some of my friends are always tinkering the data from their PBOXs with their computers that they don't get any sleep the night after track event.
Today I put two fast laps together from the Nordschleife and the optimized time was 7.52 in traffic...not bad
Some of my friends are always tinkering the data from their PBOXs with their computers that they don't get any sleep the night after track event.
Today I put two fast laps together from the Nordschleife and the optimized time was 7.52 in traffic...not bad
#30
10-18-2007, 04:25 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: VANCOUVER, BC, CANADA
Posts: 489
Rep Power: 37
that is a super cool system....my only concern is the window mounting system and if it would be allowed to be used at the local tracks?
other than that...its a great package!
other than that...its a great package!