No harm, no foul. I agree with conservative tuning. That's why I was so pleased that Tony was more interested with getting to a great AFR (12) and boost level (1.0) rather than making a peak number. I'm very happy with my 490tq rather than the 509 I could have had at 1.2. I was very pleased to leave something on the table as you say in the interest of safety.

By the way, if you wanted to take the short drive up to CT with me when I go have the hybrids tuned, I'm sure we could arrange to do a pull with your car on Tony's dyno so we could compare apples to apples. It'd be awesome to see it make that 539 crank hp and that table flat curve.

 

JB,

Was Woosh's car dyno'ed in 2wd or 4wd? Also what gear was it dyno'd in? Any idea what the power loss between 5200 and 6600 can be attributed to?

TIA


Tony

 

I think 2wd.

Also, some data was PM'd to me with raw UMW data.... just in the last hour. That data is not mine to share explicitly, but it looks much more like your curve. Peak torque is almost identical to your tune. It is flat to about 4700-4800....

I don't know why Woosh's data looked flat to 5500....I just don't know why. Gear....2wd....????

There, I cannot be more open than that. And, I am not sure how the curve was made to look so flat ...dyno unit.....?????

Anyway, I think you have a superb result. No issues on my end at all....I want to end on that note. Please give us the update. It is crucial that you have a tuner that will go up the upgrade path with you...clearly you do. Good luck!

BTW: no way for me to trivially drive up to CT for a dyno run....would love too, but my day job keeps me quite grounded. Would if I could..... I have been told that from the factory the cars have variation in power/torque....so it may not even be possible save on the same car...same air....same temps....same gas....yada yada yada.

In the big picture, we are two happy people very darn lucky to have such amazing cars. No reason to go further than that in my mind.... Too little time to worry about everything....my best.


Of course, that flat torque curve may be real....

UMW may have some tricks/knowledge that is not public....



JB

 

Of course we can end on that. I hope you don't feel persecuted/cross examined. It wasn't my intention. Open dialogue between people with differing view points is how we all learn more about these incredible machines. Sometimes the lawyer in me just gets a bit charged up about getting to the bottom of things.
Enjoy your rediculously fast car!

 

To those that don't know this, and I mean this with no disrespect...

Off-the-shelf flashes will NEVER-EVER-EVER be able to be compared to a real dyno-tune...in safety or power producton.

The ability to monitor KR(knock-retard), AFRs, EGTs, IATs, and other variables is crucial to a proper tune. An OTS flash can't take into account the condition of the plugs, air-filter, injectors...production variances, etc. So there needs tobe a "muting" of the tune to assure, hopefully, that the engine doesn't have issues. The problem with the P-car world is that there are so few tuners able to properly dyno-tune a car and they must rely on these OTS flashes for their business. In the arenas of other makes that have a widespread availability of dyno-tuning, OTS or mail-order flashes are looked at as poor substitutes for a dyno-tune.

The reason why SMG's tune shows such good numbers is that his car was dialed-in on the dyno by someone who has an ability to dial-in a car. Trying to compare a dyno-tune to a mail-order flash is unfair...and those tuners who make the flashes should agree...or I'd stay far away from them.

It's good to know that someone "close" has an abilty to dyno-tune the TT, as for anything other than a basic intake/exhaust upgrade calls for the dyno. Sure, it can be done with a mail-a-flash, but you're leaving plenty on the table withoutthe ability to dial-in a tune...plenty of power, safety, and peace of mind.

Good to hear your results, SMG, I'm sure you'll be happy once the other bits are installed and tuned.

Be good,
TomK

 

ok, sorry to stir the pot a bit more, but this is all in the interest of my learning, not trying to be controversial:
are you saying that epl dyno-tune is superior to umw mail-in flash?
what if an ots flash has built-in flexibility to adjust to production variances of different parts?
on the other hand, if a dyno-tune is perfectly matched to the current state of the hardware, what happens when the hardware ages?

 

Must be the spartan resolve I see in your sig file. Zito Elatha. I'll keep you updated.

 

Controversy happens. There's nothing that can be done about it.
Now, your K16 flash is the same as everyone else's. The problem is, one guy has a bone stock car, one guy has an exhaust, one guy has BPV's and an intake, one guy has wastegate springs, one guy has headers and one more guy has a 5 bar Fuel Pressure Regulator. Now can one stock file be perfect for all of these situations? You draw your own conclusions. On top of this, I was going with a hybrid turbo that no one has done before, there was no way I was going with an OTS file that was "close enough".

I throw my car on the dyno and Tony can tell me, well, you're 5bar FPR is giving you more fuel, so I can give you more power, your exhaust is evacuating waste faster, so I can give you more power, your air filter is sucking in more air, so I can give you more power, you bpvs are on the way out, so I can dial out the spikes, etc. He can tune for the good and the bad in my setup and make sure I make the most possible power everywhere. That sounds good to me.

 

what I am trying to understand is this:
if the tune is so specifically tailored to the current conditions of your car, does it mean you need to fine tune it again when the conditions change, e.g. hardware components age and behave slightly differently or even weather changes?
Now, if a tuner spends more time and builds into his ots flash lots of parameters to let the program adjust itself to variabilities in hardware, can it be as good as a dyno-tune once it has adjusted to my particular car, AND won't it then be more resilient to subsequent drift in hardware as the car ages?

just trying to understand as you know I am also in the process of deciding on upgrades.
of course I understand that for an unusual K16/16g you need to go with custom-tune.

 

I think the UMW tune is about as good as I'll ever get in the real world....and it "knows" about my LWFW, my exhaust changes....it is "smart"....that means I don't have to dyno it every time....maybe 1% is left on the table, but there are some pretty good tricks going on...the data I was sent may not reflect exactly all tunes...Wooosh's flat line is real afaik....clearly he got it 8 times in a row...changing the exhaust flow each time....

JB

 

JB,

Im not sure I understand what you mean by "smart" and it "knows" do you have any data to support these statements?

Any properly tuned me7.8 car will be able to handle small changes such as a light weight flywheel and minor exhaust changes. There is no magic behind that.

 

Hey HLY I realy don't think your ready for a custom tune. I think these are questions you should ask your current tuner. You guys should realize that these new tuners out here are strictly trying to cater to the needs on the customer. With an OTS program you get what you get. ALL bosch motronic programs have leeway in order to see atmospheric changes and boost gains and drops. EPL has the ability to allow leeway through the stock boost solenoid like any good tuner. And if the customer wanted 1.1 bar to show on this thread Im sure EPL would have catered to that need also same as for less boost. This thread wasnt to see if custom tune or OTS is better. thats a question over years of discussion has been proven that a custom tune is not better but PREFERRED by clients. Of course it is! its tuning your car for whats on it, in the location it gets used, and based on the atmospheric condition the car is driven in at the time(with the addition of leeway parameters liek any stock ecu.. Again not bashing but this thread went from a simple EPL gains thread to an OTS vs Custom tune thread.

S

 

JB you probably right. But this customer is here to go big and do a custom set up. Like many enthusiasts especially myself I prefer to go big and try new things. Its a car and all sorts of people come out with new products every day. Not every exhaust is the same not every header is the same. I much rather have some one tune my car for whats on it then say as an example take hybrid K16/24 turbos and try to run a straight stage 4 program with it. Wouldn't you? Its as simple as that. But for a basic set up like stock turbos. there's only so much you can do.


S

 

I'm getting the impression that people think a custom tune is more "rigid" for lack of a better term than an off the shelf tune.
Any bosch motronic ECU is going to have the ability to adapt to changes. This is built in from the factory and custom tuning doesn't change that. Moreover, I KNOW my car is running at a safe AFR and a conservative boost level, so if any changes I make were to affect the tune I know I have safety margins even before the ECU adapts.

It's not as though my car is running on the ragged edge of its performance capabilities just because I got a custom tune. In fact, the custom tune is how I know I have leeway built in.

Also, if I care to optimize for the changes I make, all I have to do is drive 1hr north and throw the car up on the dyno for a quick tweak (which I assure you is likely to be much cheaper than getting a flash upgrade from most tuners, if they even offer one for your setup).

 

Nothing more than superb ME7.x stuff...perhaps some clever stuff too. More is proprietary. There are a limtted number of people on the planet that really know the code is what I have been told....that from those that do the work on F1 cars....just dyno stuff may not fully give people the picture of what is possible. Sometimes it is the missing data that is most important in optimization.

Best.

JB