If it's all the same, I'll stick with the reproducible data on a reliable dyno. What you're describing sounds a little hocus pocus to me. Again, the lawyer in me insisting on hard evidence.

"I can't tell you, it's a secret, but it's SMART and KNOWS stuff" just doesn't work for me. Plus we all know what happens when computers get too smart (see Terminator, the Matrix, War Games)

I'm still waiting to see a prettier torque/power curve (on a mustang dyno) or a larger before and after % gain (on any dyno) for a stock K16 car. If I see either of those, I will be the FIRST one to admit I was wrong.

 

Great questions...my answers in red...
[quote=hly;1611378]
are you saying that epl dyno-tune is superior to umw mail-in flash?
That's exactly what I'm saying... a proper dyno-tune will always have a better blend of power/safety than a mail-in fash. This is not Pcar specific, but a matter of FACT with all makes. I've heard nothing but good things about UMW's flash, so please don't think I'm picking a bone with anyone, but there's no way...I'll repeat.... there is no way a mail-order tune will be able to compare to a properly tuned car on the dyno. I wouldn't be surprised if gains of 20whp/20wtq are available from a dyno-tune over an OTS flash... that seems to be the average gain with "Protunes" (what we call custom dyno-tunes) over mail-order flashes.
what if an ots flash has built-in flexibility to adjust to production variances of different parts?
It should, and so should the dyno-tune. The basis of code of the ECU is not changed, the parameters are just better programmed to suit the desired result.
on the other hand, if a dyno-tune is perfectly matched to the current state of the hardware, what happens when the hardware ages?
The same thing that happens with an OTS flash...the computer tries to adjust to the parameters/guidelines that were programmed prior. Sometimes we need a 'refreshing' after some time. Both flashes/stock programming/dyno-tunes will adjust in this manner.[/quote]

 

Zito Elatha

 

perhaps after the other 10% rolled-off when you weren't looking...

Again, I've heard nothing but great things about Kevin's tuning and machining kung-fu, but a flash is generic...a dyno-tune is custom. Without doubt, having Kevin custom tune your car would be optimal with the benefits of his "driveability" tweaks...but that's not feasable for most, so a mail-tune is the next best thing.
It really is as simple as.... a suit off-the-rack vs a custom tailored suit.

What do you think the salesmen of OTS suits are going to say?

If you choose to believe otherwise, then that's fine with me...I've no issue with that. But know this... there is no black-magic, no wizardry, no super-special secret tricks... that's just what they've been saying so people justify to themselves why they overpay for mail-order tunes.

"But these are magic beans!!!!"

Be good,
TomK

 

I just read the above posts... I do not want to take side... from my experience, being close to Protomotive and all, is that nothing beats a dyno tuned set up. It is a obvious fact. The fortunate thing about the motronic ECu is that its well written and it adjusts... so the OTC programs do quite well too.
Heck, how many US "tuners" have a Bosch emulator which allows live tuning? I say less then 4... in the whole country, if that. So even when we say that it's best to have a custom tuned P car its not like I can go to the local tuning shop and get my car retuned. I just came back from a 1200 mile trip... thats how far I have to travel to custom retune my P car.
markski

 

Me Me

 

I figured 2 guys on the east cost.. one in arkansas... one in washington.. and maybe one in Cali.... thats it. Not many considering we have so many tuners in this country LOL

 

This whole discussion has been very interesting to me. I am learning...

 

This is the reason why most owners of TTs don't run water-injection...there is an inability to properly tune for it, and without that ability to tune it's worthless or even detrimental.
So let's say an OTS flash gives 50hp/50tq...just for example. That car should show an additonal 10-20hp/tq with a Protune. Add water-injection and that car could gain another 20-30hp/tq.
Here's an example...my STI with an OTS map vs a dyno-tune with water-injection...


On a 996TT, the difference would probably be greater. And I never even mentioned that roadcourse-duty cars should be Protuned even more than the street or strip weapons.


With some of the other cars I've owned, dyno-tuners would go on a "tour"...and visit different parts of the country to tune those who didn't have that ability.
Does this happen with the P-car world? If not, then it should...

 

How does a datalogged road tune vary from a dyno tune? My car was road tuned via datalogging and I think they did a fantastic job.

 

haha if you think there are enough tuners to go around the country to tune then you dont know that there maybe like 4 programmers in the whole country that can actually tune motronic P car ecu's... with that said, they have a business to run not travel with a laptop.... we dont have AEM stand alones or autronik like you do in the mitsu, subi, and or supra world... we are at th emercy of select few..

 

Roadtuning is great, allows a tuner to work on response and driveability, as well as the full-throttle pulls. Optimally, a tuner will do both road and dyno tuning. IMHO, just a dyno-tune is only half the job...but its still better than a mail-order flash.

I bet your car has phenomenal street manners, ripping through the gears or putting around town, right?

Be good,
TomK

 

No, Markski, I don't think there are an abundance of tuners...that's the problem. Too many sit back and accept what's offered, no one really NEEDS to become a real tuner...just a wholesaler of flashes, and that's why this hasn't changed.

I don't run a stand-alone...stock ECU, with programming from Cobb. If I was so inclined, I could just buy a Tactrix cable and download the FREE software programming suite...Enginuity, log and tune myself. For $100...imagine that. They use them for the Evo's, too.
Imagine ...being able to download the software to tune your ECU for free...using the OEM code. Now this certainly isn't for 9 out of 10 people, but tuners are using the software every day for people. One could log their car and send the file to their tuner and receive "tweaks"...not a dyno-tune but much better than a mail-order flash.

At the mercy of a select few?... yeah, I hear you...."magic beans"....

 

Ace996,

Yes, it drives great, really tight - it's a sweet set-up. For me - the instant throttle response, non-assisted clutch and 700HP is a winning combination. The car feels like it's tweaked just about perfectly, now. For the first time, the power feels adequate and I plan on just driving it to enjoy it. I think I am actually done with power/tuning type upgrades...

 

John,
I'm sure the car runs awesome. I've also heard great things about Todd K's tuning (just like I've heard about Kevins... man I feel like this thread has gotten way too negative, which was not my intention).
My perceived difference between logging/e-mail tune and a dyno tune was how easy it was to "dial-in" the tune with multiple runs. I'd imagine with the e-mailed tune, you had to go run the car, log it again, e-mail Todd, get a flash back via e-mail, upload it, go out and run and log the car again, etc.
Tony and I did four rounds of "tweaks" in about 30 min (tweak, dyno pull, tweak, dyno pull, etc.). The major stuff was taken care of on the first "tweak" and the next 3 were smaller adjustments, but all netted power or "feel". Tony was clear to me that when we put the hybrids on, we'd be doing many more rounds of tweaks to make sure everything runs perfect and to my preferences (after all, this flash was just to tide me over for 2 weeks). I'd imagine the same amount of tweaking would be time/cost prohibitive and/or tedious via e-mail and data logging. At some point, it's just not worth the extra hour's work to make sure there's an extra degree of timing at just off idle, or to try and smooth out a small rich bump in the AFR because it's close enough.

The best analogy I've come up with between OTS, e-mail, and dyno tune is making chili:
1. You can buy canned chili. It has exactly the same ingredients for everyone in exactly the same proportions. Some cans are better than others, and if you can find a canned flavor to your liking, awesome.
2. You can order chili from the restaurant down the block and tell them, I like mine with a little more salt. Depending on how it comes out, next time you can ask for more or less.
3. You can make chili at home and take a spoonful after adding each ingredient to make sure it's to your liking. If not, you can add more until perfect (and in this instance, even take a bit out if you overdid it).