RWD Track impressions.
#91
06-21-2008, 12:17 PM
Dez
Please do some research before posting data.
I am not very familiar with the US specs for the cars other than what I hear from a friend who races for the factory there and I can't keep asking him questions!
As far as Cup vs. RSR, you mention never having seen any Cup getting closer than 5 seconds in pro racing.
Here are some examples for you, I was able to pick the only three tracks where the Supercup and FIA GT race in common. FIA GT times are obviously 997RSRs whereas Supercup are Cup cars.
Silverstone 2007:
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 1.49s Collard
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 1.52 Armindo
Spa Francorchamps 2007;
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 2.22s Collard/Lieb (bunch of others in 2.23-2.25s)
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 2.25 Bleekmolen (the top 10 were all in the 2.25s)
Monza 2007;
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 1.51.2s zani (collard 1.51.9)
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 1.51.9 Faulkner (the top 11 were all in the 1.52s)
In our 24H race in Dubai in January, the fastest lap time was for Alzen in a highly modified 996RSR 4.0 ltr (did not finish) in 2.03 flat, whereas the second fastest was a 997RSR which lap time was 2.03.3s. The fastest 997 cup was driven by Bleekmolen and timed a best of 2.06.6.
With the above examples you now know of a few Cup cars being closer than 5 seconds to the fastest 997RSRs.
Cheers
Please do some research before posting data.
I am not very familiar with the US specs for the cars other than what I hear from a friend who races for the factory there and I can't keep asking him questions!
As far as Cup vs. RSR, you mention never having seen any Cup getting closer than 5 seconds in pro racing.
Here are some examples for you, I was able to pick the only three tracks where the Supercup and FIA GT race in common. FIA GT times are obviously 997RSRs whereas Supercup are Cup cars.
Silverstone 2007:
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 1.49s Collard
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 1.52 Armindo
Spa Francorchamps 2007;
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 2.22s Collard/Lieb (bunch of others in 2.23-2.25s)
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 2.25 Bleekmolen (the top 10 were all in the 2.25s)
Monza 2007;
Fastest qualifying FIA GT: 1.51.2s zani (collard 1.51.9)
Fastest qualifying Supercup: 1.51.9 Faulkner (the top 11 were all in the 1.52s)
In our 24H race in Dubai in January, the fastest lap time was for Alzen in a highly modified 996RSR 4.0 ltr (did not finish) in 2.03 flat, whereas the second fastest was a 997RSR which lap time was 2.03.3s. The fastest 997 cup was driven by Bleekmolen and timed a best of 2.06.6.
With the above examples you now know of a few Cup cars being closer than 5 seconds to the fastest 997RSRs.
Cheers
#92
06-21-2008, 12:55 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
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Jean, Supercup is a professional series, how does that equal a club driver? You see allkinds of heralded drivers going through there, ones that have already had victories at lemans, and have a full race team support with several international drivers.
Put one of those caliber drivers with a full race support from a pro team in Al's car and see what happens. You arent even comparing apples to apples here. Pro drivers with race team sponsored and developed cars, vs street cars.
When I say club racing I mean something like the PCA where guys buy a cup car and have one mechanic or something set it up and go.
Put one of those caliber drivers with a full race support from a pro team in Al's car and see what happens. You arent even comparing apples to apples here. Pro drivers with race team sponsored and developed cars, vs street cars.
When I say club racing I mean something like the PCA where guys buy a cup car and have one mechanic or something set it up and go.
#93
06-21-2008, 01:38 PM
Dez
TRUST ME! I know the difference between Pro and amateur racing, i am not sure how long you have been around race tracks, this is my 23rd year! It was you who was calling people on Rennlist and here pro drivers not me!You were arguing my point when I said that the difference between Cup cars and RSR is around 5 seconds, I don't even know why.
Then you mentioned FIA GT, what is that, amateur racing?
I am comparing FIA GT vs. Supercup, BOTH driven by PRO drivers. In fact most Supercup drivers PAY to race, are not paid to race, so that adds one more question mark about their professional status..The difference as you can see is less than 5 seconds, I did not make this up, it is the realityand there is the data, Cup cars are about 5 seconds slower or less than the fastest 997RSRs! You can choose to look at this from as many angles as you want, the reality does not change, that's the difference, PRO vs PRO for accurate comparison.
I don't even know why you got here from a 2WD conversation, but if you maintain that AL's full weight 996TT with JIC suspension goes as fast as a CUP car, then your Cup car drivers in the US are extremely SLOW! Which I doubt is the case? And yes, I know the difference between time trials and racing, I win every time trial I participated in this year and beat the lap record that holds until today, 6 seconds faster than the fastest 997GT3RS and faster than a race modified 996GT2 driven by a professional (9th in the 24 hours, 10th in the Porsche Transsyberia, 1 of 104 Porsche instructors worldwide, etc..), and I am still slower than a well driven 997CUP, so trust me I DO KNOW.
TRUST ME! I know the difference between Pro and amateur racing, i am not sure how long you have been around race tracks, this is my 23rd year! It was you who was calling people on Rennlist and here pro drivers not me!You were arguing my point when I said that the difference between Cup cars and RSR is around 5 seconds, I don't even know why.
Then you mentioned FIA GT, what is that, amateur racing?
I am comparing FIA GT vs. Supercup, BOTH driven by PRO drivers. In fact most Supercup drivers PAY to race, are not paid to race, so that adds one more question mark about their professional status..The difference as you can see is less than 5 seconds, I did not make this up, it is the realityand there is the data, Cup cars are about 5 seconds slower or less than the fastest 997RSRs! You can choose to look at this from as many angles as you want, the reality does not change, that's the difference, PRO vs PRO for accurate comparison.
I don't even know why you got here from a 2WD conversation, but if you maintain that AL's full weight 996TT with JIC suspension goes as fast as a CUP car, then your Cup car drivers in the US are extremely SLOW! Which I doubt is the case? And yes, I know the difference between time trials and racing, I win every time trial I participated in this year and beat the lap record that holds until today, 6 seconds faster than the fastest 997GT3RS and faster than a race modified 996GT2 driven by a professional (9th in the 24 hours, 10th in the Porsche Transsyberia, 1 of 104 Porsche instructors worldwide, etc..), and I am still slower than a well driven 997CUP, so trust me I DO KNOW.
#94
06-21-2008, 02:51 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
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Jean, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.
You are the one comparing a Supercup PRO driver to Al's Amatuer driven car. the problem with that is, not only is the driver pro, but the teams are pro too, so how in the heck are we supposed to compare the two?
You are trying to forge a useless comparison of pro vs amatuer. All I said was, with amatuer club (NON PRO!!!!!!) drivers in their OWN car, without professional team developement and on the same tires.
So on EQUAL GROUNDS AS AL's car.
Al's car could turn a lap that is close/equal or maybe faster at some tracks.
Then you go and throw a freaking pro racing series into it. Comon man. How is that a fair comparison?
I'll even one up you, even though this cant be proved. Take Al's car to be developed by one of the pro teams, and driven by a pro supercup driver, with supercup slicks. And it will still be close or equal to a Cup Car. FOR A ONE LAP TIME ONLY.
You are the one comparing a Supercup PRO driver to Al's Amatuer driven car. the problem with that is, not only is the driver pro, but the teams are pro too, so how in the heck are we supposed to compare the two?
You are trying to forge a useless comparison of pro vs amatuer. All I said was, with amatuer club (NON PRO!!!!!!) drivers in their OWN car, without professional team developement and on the same tires.
So on EQUAL GROUNDS AS AL's car.
Al's car could turn a lap that is close/equal or maybe faster at some tracks.
Then you go and throw a freaking pro racing series into it. Comon man. How is that a fair comparison?
I'll even one up you, even though this cant be proved. Take Al's car to be developed by one of the pro teams, and driven by a pro supercup driver, with supercup slicks. And it will still be close or equal to a Cup Car. FOR A ONE LAP TIME ONLY.
#95
06-21-2008, 03:35 PM
Registered User
In an effort to try and rescue this thread and get it back on topic, Several times comments were made in reference to "GT2 suspension" being "different" and "better".
Can we get a running list of the differences in the two suspension systems??? I know the uprights are different and the upper and lower control arms are different... What else makes the GT2 suspension so much of an advantage that one would consider just "selling their TT and buying a GT2"?
Why not just buy the parts?
Mike
Can we get a running list of the differences in the two suspension systems??? I know the uprights are different and the upper and lower control arms are different... What else makes the GT2 suspension so much of an advantage that one would consider just "selling their TT and buying a GT2"?
Why not just buy the parts?
Mike
#96
06-21-2008, 03:41 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
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I beleive the bushings are solid (all of them) on the GT2.
Arent the pickup points different as well? That's all I can think of. But someone mentioned before the detriment of lowering the TT's compared to the GT2/3, had something to do with the angle of the control arms which I dont know would change with uppers and lowers or not.
Arent the pickup points different as well? That's all I can think of. But someone mentioned before the detriment of lowering the TT's compared to the GT2/3, had something to do with the angle of the control arms which I dont know would change with uppers and lowers or not.
#97
06-21-2008, 04:56 PM
Registered User
I'll get that confirmed shortly, but if that isnt the case, I'd expect there's minimal outlay in additional parts/time to get a well sorted TT converted to RWD to perform at the level you've come to expect...
Mike
Mike
#98
06-22-2008, 03:40 AM
I only responded to : by giving you three examples in FIA GT Pro Series (like ALMS) where “stock” Cup cars are less than 5 seconds apart from “stock” RSRs.
Dez, have you driven a 997 Cup car all out? If you have, you would know that this is not possible in Al’s current configuration even with slicks and with the same driver in both cars.
This has become very time consuming, unfortunately I cannot keep up, so I will limit my interventions, maybe also for the good of this thread. I have been using 2WD for three years now, and been in all the sorts of cars involved in this discussion, and know that a properly setup Porsche 996 4WD will never be as competitive as a properly setup 2WD (weight savings included) in dry conditions on the track..and that’s my opinion only J
Ciao!
#99
06-22-2008, 07:49 AM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 Al
I was mentioning the test as you asked how to test it, there is no point otherwise I agree except if you want to know how the car is coping with the tune.
Dez,
Without getting into too much detail, when I say well driven Cup, I mean a good club driver, top 1-2 driving a 997 Cup. If Al's street car with JICs and stock weight goes as fast as a well driven Cup I will have to retire from this hobby sooner rather than later.
Leh Keen's is hardly a reference since his car runs without restrictors (and other changes). The 996RSR like mine is about 3-4 seconds faster than a 997Cup, and the 997RSR about 5 seconds faster per lap on our local track here. (driven by Pros)
I don't understand the Supercup tire comment, I guess you are talking about the Michelin S8 slicks.
I was mentioning the test as you asked how to test it, there is no point otherwise I agree except if you want to know how the car is coping with the tune.
Dez,
Without getting into too much detail, when I say well driven Cup, I mean a good club driver, top 1-2 driving a 997 Cup. If Al's street car with JICs and stock weight goes as fast as a well driven Cup I will have to retire from this hobby sooner rather than later.
Leh Keen's is hardly a reference since his car runs without restrictors (and other changes). The 996RSR like mine is about 3-4 seconds faster than a 997Cup, and the 997RSR about 5 seconds faster per lap on our local track here. (driven by Pros)
I don't understand the Supercup tire comment, I guess you are talking about the Michelin S8 slicks.
Next thing I know, you throw pro racing series at me. Whereas, Al's car has neither the developement, nor level of driver to make a fair comparison.
I'm done with it, you win.
#101
06-22-2008, 01:05 PM
I hope you have not taken anything I said against you!
Dez, no winners or losers, seriously, just differences in opinion strongly voiced. Looking forward to meet you at a track one of these days and have some good fun.
Cheers
Dez, no winners or losers, seriously, just differences in opinion strongly voiced. Looking forward to meet you at a track one of these days and have some good fun.
Cheers
#103
06-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Registered User
Screw that... I took it all personally...
Oh, wait... It wasn't directed at me...
But I did take notes and learned some "stuff"...
This RWD thing has me interested...
Mike
Oh, wait... It wasn't directed at me...
But I did take notes and learned some "stuff"...
This RWD thing has me interested...
Mike
#104
06-22-2008, 02:08 PM
Can you show me where I compared a Supercup pro driver with Al?
I only responded to : by giving you three examples in FIA GT Pro Series (like ALMS) where “stock” Cup cars are less than 5 seconds apart from “stock” RSRs.
Dez, have you driven a 997 Cup car all out? If you have, you would know that this is not possible in Al’s current configuration even with slicks and with the same driver in both cars.
This has become very time consuming, unfortunately I cannot keep up, so I will limit my interventions, maybe also for the good of this thread. I have been using 2WD for three years now, and been in all the sorts of cars involved in this discussion, and know that a properly setup Porsche 996 4WD will never be as competitive as a properly setup 2WD (weight savings included) in dry conditions on the track..and that’s my opinion only J
Ciao!
I only responded to : by giving you three examples in FIA GT Pro Series (like ALMS) where “stock” Cup cars are less than 5 seconds apart from “stock” RSRs.
Dez, have you driven a 997 Cup car all out? If you have, you would know that this is not possible in Al’s current configuration even with slicks and with the same driver in both cars.
This has become very time consuming, unfortunately I cannot keep up, so I will limit my interventions, maybe also for the good of this thread. I have been using 2WD for three years now, and been in all the sorts of cars involved in this discussion, and know that a properly setup Porsche 996 4WD will never be as competitive as a properly setup 2WD (weight savings included) in dry conditions on the track..and that’s my opinion only J
Ciao!
thanks for all your input, I was thinking the same as your post I quoted.
tom
#105
06-23-2008, 04:07 AM
In an effort to try and rescue this thread and get it back on topic, Several times comments were made in reference to "GT2 suspension" being "different" and "better".
Can we get a running list of the differences in the two suspension systems??? I know the uprights are different and the upper and lower control arms are different... What else makes the GT2 suspension so much of an advantage that one would consider just "selling their TT and buying a GT2"?
Why not just buy the parts?
Mike
Can we get a running list of the differences in the two suspension systems??? I know the uprights are different and the upper and lower control arms are different... What else makes the GT2 suspension so much of an advantage that one would consider just "selling their TT and buying a GT2"?
Why not just buy the parts?
Mike