KeithTA Protomotive 997 vs. Chris Green USP 996
#31
08-03-2008, 04:28 AM
Basic Sponsor
how about you give your car to Chris and his family... have them pressure test the car from the Turbos.... at 30 psi.... Fix anything thay shows up....then in the meantime have Todd send you stiffer DV springs( like he did for me recently) and then put some good gas and run it at 1.3 bars again...
I told you to have someone take a look at your car a few months ago.... not sure if you did... but now is the time and the proof is in the outcome of this race...
As a individual it's not as easy as it is for a shop to make things right... I bet my week'ss pay that if you pressure test you car at 30 psi your problems will show up... mine just did and I ran 4 mph faster at the track after I fixed the problems...
Good luck to you and Chris...
good job.
mark
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
#32
08-03-2008, 08:42 AM
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Good video...thanks for sharing. Personally, I don't believe the DV's effected the outcome at all. It's not like Keith was ever pulling mid gear (in any gear). He got beat fair and square.
Both cars run well and the video looked A LOT closer than 3 cars lengths....
Both cars run well and the video looked A LOT closer than 3 cars lengths....
#33
08-03-2008, 10:07 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Coral Springs, Florida
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Rep Power: 58 Ohio dont forget 1 car you would not see his headlight's since he would be on my bumper,2 cars you start to see lights from that angle the video shut down just as I went it 6th which is about 160-170mph.
Chris Green
#35
08-03-2008, 11:40 AM
No, the one I ran was on a 150 shot and we ran from 40-160 I held him off till then, at 160 he comes by me pretty nice. The one on the 200 shot from Mia has way to much for me right now.
Ohio dont forget 1 car you would not see his headlight's since he would be on my bumper,2 cars you start to see lights from that angle the video shut down just as I went it 6th which is about 160-170mph.
Chris Green
Ohio dont forget 1 car you would not see his headlight's since he would be on my bumper,2 cars you start to see lights from that angle the video shut down just as I went it 6th which is about 160-170mph.
Chris Green
thats kind of strange since after 160, in the Z06, you have to put it into 5th gear which is OD, and doesnt pull as hard as 4th gear. maybe he had his 5th/6th gear changed...
good races
#36
08-03-2008, 12:59 PM
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Z06's die at 160+ only because of tall 5th and 6th gear, that is why they do not
do better in the TX Mile.
Chris your car runs very strong.
Keith your car is not running right and needs to be checked out, it should pull
harder on top than it shows.
Good Videos and fair explainations.
thanks guys,
Marty
do better in the TX Mile.
Chris your car runs very strong.
Keith your car is not running right and needs to be checked out, it should pull
harder on top than it shows.
Good Videos and fair explainations.
thanks guys,
Marty
#37
08-03-2008, 02:16 PM
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 65
Rep Power: 19 Hey guys.
First off, I want to commend Chris on his shifting & on a strong running car.
2nd, I wanted to point out regardless of my feelings about the race, the old adage always holds true - "you race what you bring". Regardless of how the 2 cars were configured or driven, all excuses aside, Chris' 996TT came out in front at the end of the run.
On the other side of the token, for those of you that like to know all the race parameters to bring reason into the picture, here they are:
1) My car doesnt have any weight reduction mods. A few days ago Chris mentioned his car was lighter than mine. Im not sure if this is truly the case nor do I know what weight reduction mods were done. Just to note, Chris had his 4 wheel drive disconnected previously, but he did say it was reconnected during our race.
2) His 996 was on 19" race wheels. Before the run, he explained that they were lighter than stock by 30 - 40 lbs (dont quite recall the exact weight he mentioned). I came out on 3 piece 20" wheels that are heavier than stock. So obviously there was a difference in unsprung weight between our cars. For those of you that dont know, its been proven that wheel changes on cars can account for tenths of a second and few mph in the 1/4 mile.
3) I am still experiencing boost delays between shifts. If you want to get technical I believe during my driftbox run there was a .4 sec delay between shifts before my boost came back on. Therefore, a race that requires 3-4 shifts can mean 1.2-1.6 seconds of "off the throttle" acceleration. At speed, cars modded like ours can accelerate approx. 10 mph every 1-2 seconds....so this does create a problem. As for a fix.....I dont have the energy to figure out that issue for now so I'll wait to dive into that problem at some point in the future.
---- Here is a video of my car running a cammed ZO6. You can get a very clear idea the pause my car is experiencing between shifts. (PS - It may not look like it, but I am banging the hell out of the shifts in this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKxqevyqJE4
3) The run that was shown on the video between Chris and I was done when my boost was set to 1.25 bar. (My lower boost run) I verified this by checking high boost reading on my profec after the run was done and realized my boost was not set to where it should have been. Chris said he was set to 1.3 bar and said the video shows this on his dash but I couldnt verify it on the video. I also know Chris' posted a thread that his 996TT dyno sheets were done at 1.35 bar. So my feeling is the boost setting on his car could have been higher or could have been lower than 1.3. Not saying that Chris isnt telling us the real picture, just trying to say that boost is a finicky thing and can fluctuate. Just to point out, I have dialed in my boost in the past so it ran between 1.28 in lower gears and held out 1.30 in 4th and 5th. .....Hours later, keeping the Profec boost controller at the exact same setting, the boost dropped off by .05 bar. Bascially, a difference of 0.1 bar (1.4 psi) of boost can mean approx. a 20-40 hp change in power on modified cars like ours. Bottom line, I cannot say how different our boost pressures were, but I know there was a discrepancy. (Under normal cicumstances, 1.4 psi of boost really doesnt matter a whole lot, but when cars that perform this close to each other go up against one another in a drag run, it can definetely mean winning or losing the race.)
Lastly,
After the 1st run was finished, I dialed my boost in higher to a flat 1.30. We lined up for a 2nd run. Since his turbos are a bit smaller than mine, his car spools up a little faster.....but outside of that both cars were locked up during the 2nd run. Well atleast all of 2nd and 3rd. When we finished 3rd, I saw his car drop back - something happened. We all pulled over. Chris broke his shifter and couldnt continue racing. So all and all - we had only 1 good run.
Again, everything I pointed out above was to give everyone a clear comparison of the conditions of the race. But again, all variables aside, after the run, Chris' 996 was the one who came out ahead.
Keith
First off, I want to commend Chris on his shifting & on a strong running car.
2nd, I wanted to point out regardless of my feelings about the race, the old adage always holds true - "you race what you bring". Regardless of how the 2 cars were configured or driven, all excuses aside, Chris' 996TT came out in front at the end of the run.
On the other side of the token, for those of you that like to know all the race parameters to bring reason into the picture, here they are:
1) My car doesnt have any weight reduction mods. A few days ago Chris mentioned his car was lighter than mine. Im not sure if this is truly the case nor do I know what weight reduction mods were done. Just to note, Chris had his 4 wheel drive disconnected previously, but he did say it was reconnected during our race.
2) His 996 was on 19" race wheels. Before the run, he explained that they were lighter than stock by 30 - 40 lbs (dont quite recall the exact weight he mentioned). I came out on 3 piece 20" wheels that are heavier than stock. So obviously there was a difference in unsprung weight between our cars. For those of you that dont know, its been proven that wheel changes on cars can account for tenths of a second and few mph in the 1/4 mile.
3) I am still experiencing boost delays between shifts. If you want to get technical I believe during my driftbox run there was a .4 sec delay between shifts before my boost came back on. Therefore, a race that requires 3-4 shifts can mean 1.2-1.6 seconds of "off the throttle" acceleration. At speed, cars modded like ours can accelerate approx. 10 mph every 1-2 seconds....so this does create a problem. As for a fix.....I dont have the energy to figure out that issue for now so I'll wait to dive into that problem at some point in the future.
---- Here is a video of my car running a cammed ZO6. You can get a very clear idea the pause my car is experiencing between shifts. (PS - It may not look like it, but I am banging the hell out of the shifts in this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKxqevyqJE4
3) The run that was shown on the video between Chris and I was done when my boost was set to 1.25 bar. (My lower boost run) I verified this by checking high boost reading on my profec after the run was done and realized my boost was not set to where it should have been. Chris said he was set to 1.3 bar and said the video shows this on his dash but I couldnt verify it on the video. I also know Chris' posted a thread that his 996TT dyno sheets were done at 1.35 bar. So my feeling is the boost setting on his car could have been higher or could have been lower than 1.3. Not saying that Chris isnt telling us the real picture, just trying to say that boost is a finicky thing and can fluctuate. Just to point out, I have dialed in my boost in the past so it ran between 1.28 in lower gears and held out 1.30 in 4th and 5th. .....Hours later, keeping the Profec boost controller at the exact same setting, the boost dropped off by .05 bar. Bascially, a difference of 0.1 bar (1.4 psi) of boost can mean approx. a 20-40 hp change in power on modified cars like ours. Bottom line, I cannot say how different our boost pressures were, but I know there was a discrepancy. (Under normal cicumstances, 1.4 psi of boost really doesnt matter a whole lot, but when cars that perform this close to each other go up against one another in a drag run, it can definetely mean winning or losing the race.)
Lastly,
After the 1st run was finished, I dialed my boost in higher to a flat 1.30. We lined up for a 2nd run. Since his turbos are a bit smaller than mine, his car spools up a little faster.....but outside of that both cars were locked up during the 2nd run. Well atleast all of 2nd and 3rd. When we finished 3rd, I saw his car drop back - something happened. We all pulled over. Chris broke his shifter and couldnt continue racing. So all and all - we had only 1 good run.
Again, everything I pointed out above was to give everyone a clear comparison of the conditions of the race. But again, all variables aside, after the run, Chris' 996 was the one who came out ahead.
Keith
Problem i see is you want your cake and eat it too.. 20" wheels are for cruising south beach.. Not highway rolls.. If your going to race a car you know is not a pig you dial in your boost as high as you can safely run and make the most power.. you dont dial in boost to match your opponent to say the playing fields are level.. Each car is completely different in every way.. 2 totally different setups and it clearly shows the more dominant setup for highway rolls is the 996.. Im sure cruising down the strip you get more looks but to each his own.. Chris is out for 1 thing.. To go fast as possible and still be able to cruise out to PF Changs in style..
Chris's car was AWD the night you ran also.. As far as lightweight mods of course his car is a little lighter.. He doesnt have a big turbo kit w/ twin wastegates..
#39
08-03-2008, 02:21 PM
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 65
Rep Power: 19 I have no explanation on how the z06 went by at 160 after being pulled thru 4 gears as i know as well they die as soon as they hit 5th.. dual stage nitrous possibly.. This z06 had more ***** in 5th than 4th somehow.. soon enough well get chris's car up at that level.. One step at a time.. We have an AWD dyno in house and we do alot of testing to see exactly what works and what doesnt.. We have thrown $1000's of dollars at this car in parts that were guaranteed to make HP and actually LOST HP.. Yes Not only did they not gain HP they lost HP.. Testing back to back to back is how you know if you got it right.. the same thing we did in over 200 dyno runs with our Stock turbo Evo.. 10's @ 127mph on a 16g turbo requires alot of testing just like we have done with the porsche!!!
#40
08-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Problem i see is you want your cake and eat it too.. 20" wheels are for cruising south beach.. Not highway rolls.. If your going to race a car you know is not a pig you dial in your boost as high as you can safely run and make the most power.. you dont dial in boost to match your opponent to say the playing fields are level.. Each car is completely different in every way.. 2 totally different setups and it clearly shows the more dominant setup for highway rolls is the 996.. Im sure cruising down the strip you get more looks but to each his own.. Chris is out for 1 thing.. To go fast as possible and still be able to cruise out to PF Changs in style..
Chris's car was AWD the night you ran also.. As far as lightweight mods of course his car is a little lighter.. He doesnt have a big turbo kit w/ twin wastegates..
Chris's car was AWD the night you ran also.. As far as lightweight mods of course his car is a little lighter.. He doesnt have a big turbo kit w/ twin wastegates..
#41
08-03-2008, 06:39 PM
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Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
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Markski,
Normally my Profec setting is at 54% to make 1.28 bar. The night of the race for some reason the the Profec read 54% but the boost was only showing 1.18 ish. I had to increase the setting on the Profec to like 58-59% to get 1.30 bar. 2-3 hours later, I ran Chris' 996 and after the run I checked my peak boost and it was back in the mid 1.2s again. I had to increase the Profec even higher to get the 1.3 to show again. Something didnt seem right as in 8 months of driving my car I never really had to increase my Profec setting past 54-55% to get my desired boost level. That night I was running it at 58-59% So maybe there is a leak or something else going on somewhere....
Heres my question....
Hypothetically speaking, lets say my boost pressure is being read off the intake manifold. If there is a leak lets say somewhere around the turbos or intercooler piping and I over compensate the setting on the Profec to acheive a true 1.3 bar and I am at full throttle and the boost pressure is sustained, could there still be a loss in power because of the leak?
Also Markski. When you experienced your leak and lost 4 mph off your trap speeds, did your boost pressures show a drop or did everything still show as normal?
Keith
Normally my Profec setting is at 54% to make 1.28 bar. The night of the race for some reason the the Profec read 54% but the boost was only showing 1.18 ish. I had to increase the setting on the Profec to like 58-59% to get 1.30 bar. 2-3 hours later, I ran Chris' 996 and after the run I checked my peak boost and it was back in the mid 1.2s again. I had to increase the Profec even higher to get the 1.3 to show again. Something didnt seem right as in 8 months of driving my car I never really had to increase my Profec setting past 54-55% to get my desired boost level. That night I was running it at 58-59% So maybe there is a leak or something else going on somewhere....
Heres my question....
Hypothetically speaking, lets say my boost pressure is being read off the intake manifold. If there is a leak lets say somewhere around the turbos or intercooler piping and I over compensate the setting on the Profec to acheive a true 1.3 bar and I am at full throttle and the boost pressure is sustained, could there still be a loss in power because of the leak?
Also Markski. When you experienced your leak and lost 4 mph off your trap speeds, did your boost pressures show a drop or did everything still show as normal?
Keith
Keith,
how about you give your car to Chris and his family... have them pressure test the car from the Turbos.... at 30 psi.... Fix anything thay shows up....then in the meantime have Todd send you stiffer DV springs( like he did for me recently) and then put some good gas and run it at 1.3 bars again...
I told you to have someone take a look at your car a few months ago.... not sure if you did... but now is the time and the proof is in the outcome of this race...
As a individual it's not as easy as it is for a shop to make things right... I bet my week'ss pay that if you pressure test you car at 30 psi your problems will show up... mine just did and I ran 4 mph faster at the track after I fixed the problems...
Good luck to you and Chris...
good job.
mark
how about you give your car to Chris and his family... have them pressure test the car from the Turbos.... at 30 psi.... Fix anything thay shows up....then in the meantime have Todd send you stiffer DV springs( like he did for me recently) and then put some good gas and run it at 1.3 bars again...
I told you to have someone take a look at your car a few months ago.... not sure if you did... but now is the time and the proof is in the outcome of this race...
As a individual it's not as easy as it is for a shop to make things right... I bet my week'ss pay that if you pressure test you car at 30 psi your problems will show up... mine just did and I ran 4 mph faster at the track after I fixed the problems...
Good luck to you and Chris...
good job.
mark
#42
08-03-2008, 06:41 PM
Basic Sponsor
I wouldnt even race a P car with 19s on let alone 20s... especially If I made 700rwhp- 1st and 2n gears are useless when your trying to put it to the ground.
It would be on a 18 inch with BF drag radials...
If you race someone you need to come prepared.
markski
It would be on a 18 inch with BF drag radials...
If you race someone you need to come prepared.
markski
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
#44
08-03-2008, 06:57 PM
Basic Sponsor
Markski,
Heres my question....
If there is a leak lets say somewhere around the turbos or intercooler piping and I over compensate the setting on the Profec to acheive a true 1.3 b?
Also Markski. When you experienced your leak and lost 4 mph off your trap speeds, did your boost pressures show a drop or did everything still show as normal?
Keith
Heres my question....
If there is a leak lets say somewhere around the turbos or intercooler piping and I over compensate the setting on the Profec to acheive a true 1.3 b?
Also Markski. When you experienced your leak and lost 4 mph off your trap speeds, did your boost pressures show a drop or did everything still show as normal?
Keith
NO the greddy never makes up for the lost the boost.
Sometimes the weather has an affect..... but it seems like in your case it can be a boost leak, Dvs leaking, Turbos not sealed up.. etc....
I have been plagued by many different boost leaks.... and after pressure testing the system from the TURBOS -not the throttle body- I found things that shocked me.
So please get a shop that knows "whats up" to pressure the car... check if the WGs open up at the saem time.... no header leaks... etc...
Anyone that has worked on Supras or evos will know exactly what to do.
Pressure test the car to at least 25 psi but not more then 30 psi.
Gets some GF drag radials for the rear....
Also, Don't think that you ran 1.3 bars because you greddy showed it peaked at 1.3. Usually they spike when you let off the the throttle. You want someone to sit with you and look at the greddy when your in it till shifting...
One more more thing- I hope you dont have the limit turned on too close and the car pulls back on the Greddy.... these settings need to be checked.
Mind you, you ran against a shop that runs 9s in other cars... do you think they didnt come prepared? Do you think they have the same questions as you do for me ?
I doubt it.
Please do what I asked you- it may cost you a few hunderd bucks but it will be well worth it.
BTW, I'm just trying to help him do the right thing... I am by no means putting down any one else involved... If I lived closer I would help in a instant.
Good luck,
Mark
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
Last edited by markski@markskituning; 08-03-2008 at 07:01 PM.
#45
08-03-2008, 07:04 PM
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Location: MPLS, MN USA
Age: 63
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Good Advice from Markski!
Also, your car should start to come alive ABOVE 1.3 bar, not peak of 1.3.
You are running at junior varsity boost levels. You need at least 1.4 bar.
It will really wake up then. I of course am talking about with Race Gas which is
what one should race with...Race gas.
Also, your car should start to come alive ABOVE 1.3 bar, not peak of 1.3.
You are running at junior varsity boost levels. You need at least 1.4 bar.
It will really wake up then. I of course am talking about with Race Gas which is
what one should race with...Race gas.