Woodster's Top Secret Mustang AWD dyno...
#32
08-24-2008 | 10:04 AM
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Scott,
OK, I'm back - Here it is (for some reason I can still not access the RL photo gallery for uploads, which is where I have all my images stored). Let me give you some background, so that you understand exactly how these dynos relate. The proto tune is the green line and the EPL is red. The Proto dyno was done on a cooler day and at 1.2 bar boost with the Proto air intake system and Ford MAF. The EPL dyno was done on a much hotter (approx. 100 degrees), extremely humid day at 1.1 bar with a stock air box and Bosch MAF. As you can see, the spool up is a little slower with the OEM air box, but the HP and torque is greater throughout the mid range and they finish virtually identically from 5500 RPM's onward. There is a dyno comparison sheet that was done with both the proto tune and EPL generic tune (not customized yet) on the same day, same hardware that shows quicker spool than the proto tune with the Bosch programming, but I don't have it here. I am working on getting a copy now.
A couple of other facts that give insight to these graphs...The first day we dynoed the proto air intake system with both the Ford MAF (full Proto 700 kit) and then dynoed with the Bosch K24 program ECU (not customized yet) with the MAF disconnected, as there was no way to use the Bosch MAF with the proto pipes. We relied on the default Bosch settings for running with no MAF. On that dyno, which was back to back with the car still strapped down, the bosch ECU program with the MAF disconnected actually spooled quicker than the proto tune with Ford MAF installed and developed about the same increase in the midrange, then finished roughly even up top, again. Unfortunately, I lost that dyno sheet on the way home (it blew out the windowby accident) and I have asked Tony for another copy, but did not receive it yet, so I can not post it tonight. When I went back to the stock air box, I lost the quicker spool, but retained the midrange increase, even at a slightly less boost level and substantailly higher temps.
My feeling is that the slower initial spool on the final dyno is being caused by a few factors: 1) extremely high temperatures and humidity vs. the original day, 2) the stock air box being the dog we both know it is and 3) the slightly lower boost setting. That said, I plan to re-install my V-Flow to help with spool up and throttle response and we plan to retune and redyno on a cooler day in the next few weeks. I will dyno at 1.2 bar with 93 octane on a 20 degree cooler day to simulate the original days conditions, then put in some race gas and dyno at 1.3ish with a race tune (a little more timing) to see the difference. My gut instinct says cooler weather + V-Flow + custom re-tune will result in a very nice gain from the current 100 degree run with stock air box.
I have to admit, I felt the same as Marty after seeing these numbers and came away thinking that dynos must not tell the whole story. I thought the dyno was very low compared to a lot of the dynos I see posted, but my 1/4 mile time and trap has stood up pretty well. You don't see many 996TT's running 10's on street tires, yet I was less than 2/100 of a second from it with this package. And Marty was right there, too - so our cars dyno similar on a Mustang and 1/4 mile similar, as well.
OK, I'm back - Here it is (for some reason I can still not access the RL photo gallery for uploads, which is where I have all my images stored). Let me give you some background, so that you understand exactly how these dynos relate. The proto tune is the green line and the EPL is red. The Proto dyno was done on a cooler day and at 1.2 bar boost with the Proto air intake system and Ford MAF. The EPL dyno was done on a much hotter (approx. 100 degrees), extremely humid day at 1.1 bar with a stock air box and Bosch MAF. As you can see, the spool up is a little slower with the OEM air box, but the HP and torque is greater throughout the mid range and they finish virtually identically from 5500 RPM's onward. There is a dyno comparison sheet that was done with both the proto tune and EPL generic tune (not customized yet) on the same day, same hardware that shows quicker spool than the proto tune with the Bosch programming, but I don't have it here. I am working on getting a copy now.
A couple of other facts that give insight to these graphs...The first day we dynoed the proto air intake system with both the Ford MAF (full Proto 700 kit) and then dynoed with the Bosch K24 program ECU (not customized yet) with the MAF disconnected, as there was no way to use the Bosch MAF with the proto pipes. We relied on the default Bosch settings for running with no MAF. On that dyno, which was back to back with the car still strapped down, the bosch ECU program with the MAF disconnected actually spooled quicker than the proto tune with Ford MAF installed and developed about the same increase in the midrange, then finished roughly even up top, again. Unfortunately, I lost that dyno sheet on the way home (it blew out the windowby accident) and I have asked Tony for another copy, but did not receive it yet, so I can not post it tonight. When I went back to the stock air box, I lost the quicker spool, but retained the midrange increase, even at a slightly less boost level and substantailly higher temps.
My feeling is that the slower initial spool on the final dyno is being caused by a few factors: 1) extremely high temperatures and humidity vs. the original day, 2) the stock air box being the dog we both know it is and 3) the slightly lower boost setting. That said, I plan to re-install my V-Flow to help with spool up and throttle response and we plan to retune and redyno on a cooler day in the next few weeks. I will dyno at 1.2 bar with 93 octane on a 20 degree cooler day to simulate the original days conditions, then put in some race gas and dyno at 1.3ish with a race tune (a little more timing) to see the difference. My gut instinct says cooler weather + V-Flow + custom re-tune will result in a very nice gain from the current 100 degree run with stock air box.
I have to admit, I felt the same as Marty after seeing these numbers and came away thinking that dynos must not tell the whole story. I thought the dyno was very low compared to a lot of the dynos I see posted, but my 1/4 mile time and trap has stood up pretty well. You don't see many 996TT's running 10's on street tires, yet I was less than 2/100 of a second from it with this package. And Marty was right there, too - so our cars dyno similar on a Mustang and 1/4 mile similar, as well.
I'm anxious to see your 1/4 mile and 60-130 times. If everything translates appropriately, I imagine you should see at least high 10's in the 134+ mph range.
Good luck, brother.
#33
08-24-2008 | 11:31 AM
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Marty, I thought you re-tuned this spring. You may want to consider a race tune from Todd for the high octane days.
Scott, I hope so, we'll see. Thanks for the encouragement - we all know how tough 10's are with these cars, especially on street tires, but I'm hoping.
Here is the dyno from the first day comparison. I told Tony I had an aggressive tune from Todd (it was a c16 race fuel based file that worked best in my car) and Tony mentioned that because of that fact, my car probably responded well to the higher octane I used at the track. Tony gave me what he considered a conservative timing file and mentioned that the car may not respond to high octane fuel, as well. So, when I go back in a few weeks for the tune in cooler weather, I am going to get a race fuel tune done in conjunction with the 93 octane re-tune. I am also going to tune with the V-Flow in hopes of improving the spool up I lost with the stock air box.
Tony just sent me the original comparison file. It is not the best quality, but you can see what I saw that day. Same day, same dyno, we simply soldered in a new Bosch chip with a k24 program from a similar HP K24 car. There was no additional custom tuning on this pull. You can see that it spooled quicker and held a slight margin all along. We were surprised, as we expected a slight drop. The car felt quicker, too, on the initial test drive..
Scott, I hope so, we'll see. Thanks for the encouragement - we all know how tough 10's are with these cars, especially on street tires, but I'm hoping.
Here is the dyno from the first day comparison. I told Tony I had an aggressive tune from Todd (it was a c16 race fuel based file that worked best in my car) and Tony mentioned that because of that fact, my car probably responded well to the higher octane I used at the track. Tony gave me what he considered a conservative timing file and mentioned that the car may not respond to high octane fuel, as well. So, when I go back in a few weeks for the tune in cooler weather, I am going to get a race fuel tune done in conjunction with the 93 octane re-tune. I am also going to tune with the V-Flow in hopes of improving the spool up I lost with the stock air box.
Tony just sent me the original comparison file. It is not the best quality, but you can see what I saw that day. Same day, same dyno, we simply soldered in a new Bosch chip with a k24 program from a similar HP K24 car. There was no additional custom tuning on this pull. You can see that it spooled quicker and held a slight margin all along. We were surprised, as we expected a slight drop. The car felt quicker, too, on the initial test drive..
Last edited by John D; 08-24-2008 at 11:41 AM.
#34
08-24-2008 | 02:30 PM
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John,
thanks for sharing, cant wait to see the pavement numbers!
Also, I bought the durametrics cable and paid for an upgraded tune upgrade but
have never taken the cable out of the plastic bag it came in. Yesterday my Viper Buddy
pulled over 700 RWHP on his Viper so I may need some new juice in my motor.
MK
thanks for sharing, cant wait to see the pavement numbers!
Also, I bought the durametrics cable and paid for an upgraded tune upgrade but
have never taken the cable out of the plastic bag it came in. Yesterday my Viper Buddy
pulled over 700 RWHP on his Viper so I may need some new juice in my motor.
MK
#35
08-24-2008 | 04:26 PM
Marty, I thought you re-tuned this spring. You may want to consider a race tune from Todd for the high octane days.
Scott, I hope so, we'll see. Thanks for the encouragement - we all know how tough 10's are with these cars, especially on street tires, but I'm hoping.
Here is the dyno from the first day comparison. I told Tony I had an aggressive tune from Todd (it was a c16 race fuel based file that worked best in my car) and Tony mentioned that because of that fact, my car probably responded well to the higher octane I used at the track. Tony gave me what he considered a conservative timing file and mentioned that the car may not respond to high octane fuel, as well. So, when I go back in a few weeks for the tune in cooler weather, I am going to get a race fuel tune done in conjunction with the 93 octane re-tune. I am also going to tune with the V-Flow in hopes of improving the spool up I lost with the stock air box.
Tony just sent me the original comparison file. It is not the best quality, but you can see what I saw that day. Same day, same dyno, we simply soldered in a new Bosch chip with a k24 program from a similar HP K24 car. There was no additional custom tuning on this pull. You can see that it spooled quicker and held a slight margin all along. We were surprised, as we expected a slight drop. The car felt quicker, too, on the initial test drive..
Scott, I hope so, we'll see. Thanks for the encouragement - we all know how tough 10's are with these cars, especially on street tires, but I'm hoping.
Here is the dyno from the first day comparison. I told Tony I had an aggressive tune from Todd (it was a c16 race fuel based file that worked best in my car) and Tony mentioned that because of that fact, my car probably responded well to the higher octane I used at the track. Tony gave me what he considered a conservative timing file and mentioned that the car may not respond to high octane fuel, as well. So, when I go back in a few weeks for the tune in cooler weather, I am going to get a race fuel tune done in conjunction with the 93 octane re-tune. I am also going to tune with the V-Flow in hopes of improving the spool up I lost with the stock air box.
Tony just sent me the original comparison file. It is not the best quality, but you can see what I saw that day. Same day, same dyno, we simply soldered in a new Bosch chip with a k24 program from a similar HP K24 car. There was no additional custom tuning on this pull. You can see that it spooled quicker and held a slight margin all along. We were surprised, as we expected a slight drop. The car felt quicker, too, on the initial test drive..
I suspect that the k24/18g file would have yielded large gains. I was very please none the less
.
#37
08-24-2008 | 04:35 PM
BTW - I just got both of your PM's. I will respond shortly.
#38
08-24-2008 | 06:46 PM
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Update - I guess I will not be tuning with the V-Flow, as I installed it this afternoon and blew the MAF on the 3rd hard pull. Tony and Sam @SG both told me that with the stock airbox I would not have any problems, but with the V-Flow count on blowing an MAF at this HP level. Well, it certainly didn't take long. I used the V-Flow previously for 3 years at stage 4 without a problem, so I gambled I could continue with good luck at the 700 level, but it didn't go in my favor. It's to bad because the car drove nicely and pulled very strongly with the V-Flow. I have been running the stock airbox for a while now with no issues. Maybe Dan's box would work similarly, but not blow MAF's.
Last edited by John D; 08-24-2008 at 06:49 PM.
#39
08-25-2008 | 09:25 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNZAzHgJiBs
Enjoy this video guys, this was at 89 degrees, 3000 elevation feet, not as humid as east coast though. Hey John how are you doing?
Enjoy this video guys, this was at 89 degrees, 3000 elevation feet, not as humid as east coast though. Hey John how are you doing?
#40
08-25-2008 | 09:46 AM
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I've always had that same jaundiced view of dyno numbers. When I was running Formula Ford, the west coast engine builders would show dyno sheets with 110hp while the east coast builders were more like 100hp. Run them down the straight together and I doubt you'd see a difference of more than a tenth of a hp or two.
#42
08-25-2008 | 02:03 PM
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Not yet John, I just went into the wall a few days ago up in the canyons. RWD, not a good thing with this much HP. AWD is coming back for sure, I still want to live. Thank God, only cosmetic. I will keep you posted, been working too much to pay the bills Buddy. Take care.
#44
08-26-2008 | 03:04 PM
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Not yet John, I just went into the wall a few days ago up in the canyons. RWD, not a good thing with this much HP. AWD is coming back for sure, I still want to live. Thank God, only cosmetic. I will keep you posted, been working too much to pay the bills Buddy. Take care.
good luck wih your turbo. hope it wiilll be back asap buddy
Last edited by yllwturbo; 08-26-2008 at 03:07 PM.
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