Moton Tripples, more negative camber - finally, a chance to use them!
#1
12-16-2008, 03:13 AM
Moton Tripples, more negative camber - finally, a chance to use them!
I finally got a chance to drive with the Motons on track, on a dry track that is, and to start tuning. I love how easy it is to change little handling traits between run sessions!
A little too much lift throttle oversteer during turn initiation, and removing a few clicks of rear rebound did the trick. A little bit of understeer when initially accellerating through the apex of a turn, and a couple fewer clicks of front rebound helped. Too little lateral grip overall, on the extremely cold and green track surface as compared to previous days, and a generous decrease in high speed compression brought back some grip. (Verifiable with data logs.) It's possible to go the other way too, stiffening the opposite end where needed. I just need more time to experiment! It's just as easy to screw things up, of course, but the dial-a-setup nature of the car now is just too much fun. =)
Unfortunately, I had an ECU problem of some sort that had me running at half power on the straights,
. Still investigating the cause of that, but at least the corners were a blast! Still, there's a lot of work to do in finding the right range of settings, and as the weather and track continue to change, so will the right settings! Untill I get back to the same track with full power, I won't yet have a comparison of what potential for lap time reduction exists in the new suspension, when the right setup is found.
Some images by GotBlueMilk:
A little too much lift throttle oversteer during turn initiation, and removing a few clicks of rear rebound did the trick. A little bit of understeer when initially accellerating through the apex of a turn, and a couple fewer clicks of front rebound helped. Too little lateral grip overall, on the extremely cold and green track surface as compared to previous days, and a generous decrease in high speed compression brought back some grip. (Verifiable with data logs.) It's possible to go the other way too, stiffening the opposite end where needed. I just need more time to experiment! It's just as easy to screw things up, of course, but the dial-a-setup nature of the car now is just too much fun. =)
Unfortunately, I had an ECU problem of some sort that had me running at half power on the straights,
. Still investigating the cause of that, but at least the corners were a blast! Still, there's a lot of work to do in finding the right range of settings, and as the weather and track continue to change, so will the right settings! Untill I get back to the same track with full power, I won't yet have a comparison of what potential for lap time reduction exists in the new suspension, when the right setup is found.Some images by GotBlueMilk:
#3
12-16-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks Dan. Unfortunately, I just confirmed today, that one of the fronts is coming off, again, due to a leak... 2nd time. This time my rebuilder is going to send the strut to Moton to be looked at.
Here's a peak at one of those Mode Monoballs you sent me. Looks almost stock!
This time my rebuilder is going to send the strut to Moton to be looked at. Here's a peak at one of those Mode Monoballs you sent me. Looks almost stock!
#7
12-17-2008, 01:20 AM
With the stock suspension tipped as far in as it would go in front, I had:
f: -0.8 deg
r: -1.8 deg
Now I'm at:
f: -2.5 deg, 1/16" total toe out
r: -2.0 deg, 1/8" total toe in
There's at least another .5 degree more negative camber achievable at the rear with the stock camber bits, and easily another 1 degree more negative camber achievable at the front. But, since I'm keeping the alignment on the street, I'm going to see how tire wear is at this setting for a while.
I was just looking at some data comparing new corner speeds to those from my last time at Thunderhill on the stock setup. Though the track was much grippier last September, than it was this past weekend, the additional camber paid off after a workable suspension balance could be dialed in.
The dark red line is lateral acceleration, and the pink line speed - both on the stock suspension on a grippy track surface. The light blue line is lateral acceleration, and the dark blue line speed on the new suspension. The middle of the 3 lat accel peaks (the wide one), is turn 2, which is basically a giant skidpad. Even on the green track surface, the increase in camber yielded an average of .134 more Gs, and an average speed increase of 3mph, throughout the turn. (Even though the new suspension's speed was higher in these turns, the longitudinal acceleration is lower, due to the ECU problems encountered.)
Still, the alignment and balance aren't quite there yet, but there is definitely potential!
Here's the section of track that corresponds to the data:
f: -0.8 deg
r: -1.8 deg
Now I'm at:
f: -2.5 deg, 1/16" total toe out
r: -2.0 deg, 1/8" total toe in
There's at least another .5 degree more negative camber achievable at the rear with the stock camber bits, and easily another 1 degree more negative camber achievable at the front. But, since I'm keeping the alignment on the street, I'm going to see how tire wear is at this setting for a while.
I was just looking at some data comparing new corner speeds to those from my last time at Thunderhill on the stock setup. Though the track was much grippier last September, than it was this past weekend, the additional camber paid off after a workable suspension balance could be dialed in.
The dark red line is lateral acceleration, and the pink line speed - both on the stock suspension on a grippy track surface. The light blue line is lateral acceleration, and the dark blue line speed on the new suspension. The middle of the 3 lat accel peaks (the wide one), is turn 2, which is basically a giant skidpad. Even on the green track surface, the increase in camber yielded an average of .134 more Gs, and an average speed increase of 3mph, throughout the turn. (Even though the new suspension's speed was higher in these turns, the longitudinal acceleration is lower, due to the ECU problems encountered.)
Still, the alignment and balance aren't quite there yet, but there is definitely potential!
Here's the section of track that corresponds to the data:
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#11
12-17-2008, 07:50 PM
Thanks guys!
Tom, it would be interesting to know what kind of lateral grip your car gets on a skidpad like turn, with it's huge downforce, big sticky tires, and significant negative camber?
Has anyone found that changes to alignment/springs/swaybar/wing-angle have an appreciable affect on the net grip that be generated, by moving balance around?
Tom, it would be interesting to know what kind of lateral grip your car gets on a skidpad like turn, with it's huge downforce, big sticky tires, and significant negative camber?
Has anyone found that changes to alignment/springs/swaybar/wing-angle have an appreciable affect on the net grip that be generated, by moving balance around?
Last edited by itacud; 12-17-2008 at 07:53 PM.
#13
12-17-2008, 08:58 PM
I was using Yoko Advan Neova AD07s. Similar grip, but a bit more consistency than the Falken RT-615s I used at the last TT. I won't even get into lap times for this past trip to the track. I was running on 2 good cylinders, with misfires on the other 4 - probably due to the "Camshaft Adjustment" fault that was logged by the ECU. Trouble shooting that will commence shortly!
#15
12-18-2008, 10:26 AM
Hi P,
Glad to see you're getting some useful data for tuning the shocks. I haven't been so fortunate. I've had 2 more track events since my PSM control unit failure; one was too wet and the other too cold to get any meaningful data. Don't feel too bad about the leaks and rebuilds. Mine are new and I have 2 canisters that won't hold a charge for very long as well as one body that has a slight leak. I know there have been others with similar problems on new ones.
What knowldge base are you using to make your adjustments? Have you found an in-depth guide for setup and tuning the shocks? What Moton provides is woefully inadequate. Wish I could find something like the old Carroll Smith pocket reference that told you what the problem was if the car was doing X.
Glad to see you're getting some useful data for tuning the shocks. I haven't been so fortunate. I've had 2 more track events since my PSM control unit failure; one was too wet and the other too cold to get any meaningful data. Don't feel too bad about the leaks and rebuilds. Mine are new and I have 2 canisters that won't hold a charge for very long as well as one body that has a slight leak. I know there have been others with similar problems on new ones.
What knowldge base are you using to make your adjustments? Have you found an in-depth guide for setup and tuning the shocks? What Moton provides is woefully inadequate. Wish I could find something like the old Carroll Smith pocket reference that told you what the problem was if the car was doing X.