k24/18g setup with or without EBC??
#46
01-02-2009 | 11:41 AM
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Then if it requires the stock ecu for it to work it is not a true standalone but a piggy back of some sort as you said your self !! If the stock ecu is required in these cars for it to make it work then a true standolne is not doable in these cars . only advanced piggy backs.
#47
01-02-2009 | 11:46 AM
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Then if it requires the stock ecu for it to work it is not a true standalone but a piggy back of some sort as you said your self !! If the stock ecu is required in these cars for it to make it work then a true standolne is not doable in these cars . only advanced piggy backs.
Thats exactly what I was eluding to. I always knew a stand alone to be just that, a STAND ALONE. It REPLACES an ECU. Anything else is a "piggy back".
#48
01-02-2009 | 11:58 AM
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Then if it requires the stock ecu for it to work it is not a true standalone but a piggy back of some sort as you said your self !! If the stock ecu is required in these cars for it to make it work then a true standolne is not doable in these cars . only advanced piggy backs.
#49
01-02-2009 | 01:44 PM
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[quote=ttboost;2197203]
It is a true standalone ecu; however, the stock pcm will be running the DBW and the other incidentals. On a DBW car, this is by far the best solution, as it leaves nothing to chance. The reason I have the standalone in a "sampling" mode is that I need to output all of the correct signals TO the stock ecu from the standalone to keep any CELs from popping up as well as to not freak out the DBW and traction control. Once I have a baseline, I can output any of the signals to any stock ecu.... meaning, it only needs to be sampled once. All cars are created equal when tricking a stock ecu 
It is also using using the stock harness and wiring and the only additions will need to be a high res MAP sensor, an alternative IAT sensor, and an ignitor. The stock ecu has embedded ignitors in the ecu, and are therefore unusable. There has to be a couple tricks done to keep misfire codes from popping up, but again, that's why this is still in the R and D process. I guess I let the cat out of the bag a little prematurely. In theory, it is piggybacked in, but only to keep the stock ecu happy. It is controlling every aspect of the engine independantly(sans the DBW).
Wes, thanks for the props
I thought I was incognito over here.... Let me get the bugs worked out, and the car running flawlessly, and I will let you know what I am using. Quite possibly I will be picking up some of the jumper harnesses from you.
Tony, Thank you as well. You are a very well respected member/vendor of 6speed and you are doing great work! Keep it up!
Also, I apologize for the thread hijack, but originally I just wanted to inform everybody about some misinformation that was being passed on. We can start another thread if everyone so chooses.
Justin
Understood...
I already installed a stand alone on my car(02 Turbo), just to make sure it would work and that I could incorporate it into the stock ecu seamlessly(no CEL).
Kinda confused here...you installed a "standalone" and want to make sure it adapts to your Stock ECU?
Where I come from a Standalone REPLACES the stock ECU? Did you mean all the stock sensors and wiring? What standalone also? PM me if you want.
I already installed a stand alone on my car(02 Turbo), just to make sure it would work and that I could incorporate it into the stock ecu seamlessly(no CEL).
Kinda confused here...you installed a "standalone" and want to make sure it adapts to your Stock ECU?
Where I come from a Standalone REPLACES the stock ECU? Did you mean all the stock sensors and wiring? What standalone also? PM me if you want.
It is also using using the stock harness and wiring and the only additions will need to be a high res MAP sensor, an alternative IAT sensor, and an ignitor. The stock ecu has embedded ignitors in the ecu, and are therefore unusable. There has to be a couple tricks done to keep misfire codes from popping up, but again, that's why this is still in the R and D process. I guess I let the cat out of the bag a little prematurely. In theory, it is piggybacked in, but only to keep the stock ecu happy. It is controlling every aspect of the engine independantly(sans the DBW).Wes, thanks for the props
I thought I was incognito over here.... Let me get the bugs worked out, and the car running flawlessly, and I will let you know what I am using. Quite possibly I will be picking up some of the jumper harnesses from you.Tony, Thank you as well. You are a very well respected member/vendor of 6speed and you are doing great work! Keep it up!
Also, I apologize for the thread hijack, but originally I just wanted to inform everybody about some misinformation that was being passed on. We can start another thread if everyone so chooses.
Justin
#50
01-02-2009 | 02:24 PM
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You are doing tuning for the 996tt as well?
This is great for the community. Tell us more of what to expect? AEM or Motec stand Alone?
This is great for the community. Tell us more of what to expect? AEM or Motec stand Alone?
This is 100% possible. Even more boost than 1.4 on pump is possible. The major problem in the Porsche market is almost everything is a "cookie cutter" setup meaning, pretty much one "remap" covers all of the similarly setup cars. This is great for everyone involved as it keeps everything "safe", but lends itself to a couple of potential issues. For 80% of the individuals modifying their cars, this is a perfect deal.
First off, if you want to try a slightly different setup from the "norm", you must really befriend your remapper, as it will take quite some time to dial in your particular configuration to the "t". In the interim, your car will be performing sub par, and could potential be dangerous. If the remapper is relying on the knock sensors and O2 sensors to "fine tune" their map, then I suggest you find a new "tuner". This is the worst possible scenario as the stock Porsche ecu is only capable of making adjustments AFTER the fact(it is a reactive adaptive ecu). This means the knock event has already happened and is therefore on the edge = BAD, Unless your car is equipped with some form of ion sensing(predictive adaptive ecu) - no 996 is equipped with this, nor is any stand alone capable of doing predictive assumptions.
Another option is to send your car to the tuner. This is really the correct way to tune the car, and by far the safest for the tuner and the end user as there are no variables. No heavy foot, no mountains, no rain, no Gallardo throttling it next to you, etc.
With a 9.5:1 CR and a reasonably decent flowing exhaust(from the head, through the valves, to the header, through the hotside, through the turbine wheel, into the cat, through the muffler, and hopefully out the tailpipes) it's reason to believe that 600+ whp on pump gas is doable, sans methanol or any additives. However, depending on the backpressure created from the exhaust(as a whole) you might have to upsize everything a bit too much. A common misconception is that you are limitted to a preset boost limit as if that, in some way affects cylinder pressure. Directly, no, indirectly, yes. We can leave that explanation for later. The worst thing that increased boost pressure is capable of(in and of itself), is a reduction in effective valve spring pressure. That and blowing off hoses, exceeding the efficiency of the intercoolers, etc. My discussion revolves around the assumption that everything else is up to the task fo performing at the given boost pressure.
A well performing system would obviously defy the laws physics.... think full boost at 2000rpm, 1000hp on pump fuel, pass emissions, wifey can take the kiddies to school in it, etc. This isn't going to happen any time soon, so we are left to making due with what we have.
A moderate intake restriction would be a MAF, or that hideous intake contraption Porsche developed. Sometimes I truly wonder what they were thinking that day. The great thing about the stock ecu is the fact that it will run without the MAF on a preset map(assumably based on manifold absolute pressure). I will give it to Porsche on that one, they were thinking ahead..... at least you can make it home(in boost, to boot). Although a maf based setup is great for almost everything under the sun(drivability, gas mileage, mediocre to decent performance), the fact remains, it is still a restriction. The larger you go, the less air flowing at lower rpms, and the more difficult it is to meter the air being ingested. So you won't see an 8 inch MAF on our engines. In some ways this can be "cheated" a bit, but alas, a discussion for later. Ideally, switching a MAP based setup would solve 100% of your intake restriction issues at the potential risk of having the car drive a bit more unpredictably(weather and elevation changes, etc). MAP based systems are made by MOTEC, AEM, Magnetti, Pectel, Electromotive, Haltech, Proefi, and about 20 more. These have proven themselves in race cars and street cars around the country, the continent, and the world.
As I am a bit tired, and have a bit of a dizzying intellect, some of you might require more clarification as to what I have posted... I don't claim to know it all, but I might know a thing or two about tuning internal combustion engines. I just hate to see any misinformation passed around and figured I would try to clarify some of the things I saw posted.
Justin
First off, if you want to try a slightly different setup from the "norm", you must really befriend your remapper, as it will take quite some time to dial in your particular configuration to the "t". In the interim, your car will be performing sub par, and could potential be dangerous. If the remapper is relying on the knock sensors and O2 sensors to "fine tune" their map, then I suggest you find a new "tuner". This is the worst possible scenario as the stock Porsche ecu is only capable of making adjustments AFTER the fact(it is a reactive adaptive ecu). This means the knock event has already happened and is therefore on the edge = BAD, Unless your car is equipped with some form of ion sensing(predictive adaptive ecu) - no 996 is equipped with this, nor is any stand alone capable of doing predictive assumptions.
Another option is to send your car to the tuner. This is really the correct way to tune the car, and by far the safest for the tuner and the end user as there are no variables. No heavy foot, no mountains, no rain, no Gallardo throttling it next to you, etc.
With a 9.5:1 CR and a reasonably decent flowing exhaust(from the head, through the valves, to the header, through the hotside, through the turbine wheel, into the cat, through the muffler, and hopefully out the tailpipes) it's reason to believe that 600+ whp on pump gas is doable, sans methanol or any additives. However, depending on the backpressure created from the exhaust(as a whole) you might have to upsize everything a bit too much. A common misconception is that you are limitted to a preset boost limit as if that, in some way affects cylinder pressure. Directly, no, indirectly, yes. We can leave that explanation for later. The worst thing that increased boost pressure is capable of(in and of itself), is a reduction in effective valve spring pressure. That and blowing off hoses, exceeding the efficiency of the intercoolers, etc. My discussion revolves around the assumption that everything else is up to the task fo performing at the given boost pressure.
A well performing system would obviously defy the laws physics.... think full boost at 2000rpm, 1000hp on pump fuel, pass emissions, wifey can take the kiddies to school in it, etc. This isn't going to happen any time soon, so we are left to making due with what we have.
A moderate intake restriction would be a MAF, or that hideous intake contraption Porsche developed. Sometimes I truly wonder what they were thinking that day. The great thing about the stock ecu is the fact that it will run without the MAF on a preset map(assumably based on manifold absolute pressure). I will give it to Porsche on that one, they were thinking ahead..... at least you can make it home(in boost, to boot). Although a maf based setup is great for almost everything under the sun(drivability, gas mileage, mediocre to decent performance), the fact remains, it is still a restriction. The larger you go, the less air flowing at lower rpms, and the more difficult it is to meter the air being ingested. So you won't see an 8 inch MAF on our engines. In some ways this can be "cheated" a bit, but alas, a discussion for later. Ideally, switching a MAP based setup would solve 100% of your intake restriction issues at the potential risk of having the car drive a bit more unpredictably(weather and elevation changes, etc). MAP based systems are made by MOTEC, AEM, Magnetti, Pectel, Electromotive, Haltech, Proefi, and about 20 more. These have proven themselves in race cars and street cars around the country, the continent, and the world.
As I am a bit tired, and have a bit of a dizzying intellect, some of you might require more clarification as to what I have posted... I don't claim to know it all, but I might know a thing or two about tuning internal combustion engines. I just hate to see any misinformation passed around and figured I would try to clarify some of the things I saw posted.
Justin
#51
01-02-2009 | 02:30 PM
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For those that don't know, Justin has tuned most of the top 1K plus hp Supras around this part of the world.
When he was in town the other day I kidnapped both him and Tommy Banh and took both of them to an "undsiclosed location." I waterboarded both of them and beat them w/ rubber hoses (while simultaneously spraying cold water on them...it reduces bruising/conceals evidence of torture). Nonetheless, neither would tell me what standalone they were using (although my guess is the V-Pro).
P.S. Todd, 1.3 is too much IMO on pump gas for 93. You need an EBC and some VP 109.
When he was in town the other day I kidnapped both him and Tommy Banh and took both of them to an "undsiclosed location." I waterboarded both of them and beat them w/ rubber hoses (while simultaneously spraying cold water on them...it reduces bruising/conceals evidence of torture). Nonetheless, neither would tell me what standalone they were using (although my guess is the V-Pro).
P.S. Todd, 1.3 is too much IMO on pump gas for 93. You need an EBC and some VP 109.
#52
01-02-2009 | 03:23 PM
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[quote=justinn;2197529]
Is it made in Australia, Japan or South America ?
#53
01-02-2009 | 03:26 PM
Eventually, and as some EVO, Dsm, and Supra tuners have figured out, there is alot more money to be made in the P car then in the Mitsu / subaru world etc.... thus the influx of many new commers...
I always hear the same thing- it cane be doen, it has een done. etc... yet we still do not see a fully functional stand alone or a piggyback available for sale on the market.... I have a feeling something will evetually be available... lets hope it will be open ended like a AEM and not locked up by the tuner...
the bottom line is: we are producing good numbers and fast cars even on a stock ecu... but the tuning is limited to few... very few.... but if a stand alone/piggyback shows up that actually works and doesn't cost $5k I think it will work well.... and will open the tuning world very many...
good luck to all,
mark
I always hear the same thing- it cane be doen, it has een done. etc... yet we still do not see a fully functional stand alone or a piggyback available for sale on the market.... I have a feeling something will evetually be available... lets hope it will be open ended like a AEM and not locked up by the tuner...
the bottom line is: we are producing good numbers and fast cars even on a stock ecu... but the tuning is limited to few... very few.... but if a stand alone/piggyback shows up that actually works and doesn't cost $5k I think it will work well.... and will open the tuning world very many...
good luck to all,
mark
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
#54
01-02-2009 | 04:24 PM
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Eventually, and as some EVO, Dsm, and Supra tuners have figured out, there is alot more money to be made in the P car then in the Mitsu / subaru world etc.... thus the influx of many new commers...
I always hear the same thing- it cane be doen, it has een done. etc... yet we still do not see a fully functional stand alone or a piggyback available for sale on the market.... I have a feeling something will evetually be available... lets hope it will be open ended like a AEM and not locked up by the tuner...
the bottom line is: we are producing good numbers and fast cars even on a stock ecu... but the tuning is limited to few... very few.... but if a stand alone/piggyback shows up that actually works and doesn't cost $5k I think it will work well.... and will open the tuning world very many...
good luck to all,
mark
I always hear the same thing- it cane be doen, it has een done. etc... yet we still do not see a fully functional stand alone or a piggyback available for sale on the market.... I have a feeling something will evetually be available... lets hope it will be open ended like a AEM and not locked up by the tuner...
the bottom line is: we are producing good numbers and fast cars even on a stock ecu... but the tuning is limited to few... very few.... but if a stand alone/piggyback shows up that actually works and doesn't cost $5k I think it will work well.... and will open the tuning world very many...
good luck to all,
mark
It's not the question of "IF" I can the computer to work, because if I have the trigger patterns working(which I do), it will work. It is however going to be an issue of coming in around everyone's pricepoint. Is it going to be as inexpensive as a remap? No. I can tell you that now. But will it help the people that have reached the limits of the stock ecu? Yes. What you guys have accomplished on the stock ecu is amazing, but wouldn't it be that much better if you could free up an additional x hp? Or make the car drive like mom's oldsmobile(ok, bad comparo, there). I knew this market could benefit from a fully programmable ecu, especially a MAP based one. What did I do? I bought a car for R and D. I would not dare use a customer car for this testing procedure. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul... I call up Tony and get a remap done
But as I mentioned it's not a question of "if", as I already have the trigger patterns down. It's merely a question of incorporating the stock ecu for emissions, dash, a/c, and DBW purposes. If I wanted to wire in an M800 and control the DBW, a/c, possibly some of the dash, I could, it's what I do..... no problem and the car would run great. I just liked the idea of having the stock ecu still in functioning order for fault codes, and OBD readability. I am not new to Porsches, as I have owned a couple over the years, and worked with a few Cup cars some years ago. There is nothing different in a Porsche ecu that makes it function differently from any other ecu, save for the embedded ignition drivers(and ignitor) which european cars are notorious for having. If I get some more time around here, I will try to expedite the process for everyone. AS I mentioned in my first post, this will not be for everyone. I am sure the remaps will be just as popular as they are now, and for the lower hp cars, it is still the best decision for cost vs. gain.Wes, what if I said "none of the above"? I will tell you that it's one of the places you mentioned
Justin
#55
01-02-2009 | 04:34 PM
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I think I registered on 6speed back in 2004... can't remember now.Take Care.... and again, what you guys have accomplished on the stock ecu is an amazing feat. ANd congrats on the single digit timeslip
Justin
#56
01-02-2009 | 04:44 PM
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It was once stated on Supraforums that "Justin Nenni could tune the Space Shuttle Columbia", although said in a much more sarcastic way than that when someone (cluelessly) asked if he could tune a TT Viper.
It is no surprise to me that his cover has been blown, but that is VERY VERY good for the Porsche community. Seems like my planned defection is coming at a very good time indeed since the future is bright.
It is no surprise to me that his cover has been blown, but that is VERY VERY good for the Porsche community. Seems like my planned defection is coming at a very good time indeed since the future is bright.
#57
01-02-2009 | 06:18 PM
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. If it is looks to be a great product at a great price.For what it's worth I paid $3,000 for my remap last year. Fortunately prices have come down since then, but at the same time if I could have put a standalone in the car for that price or 1-2k I gladly would have. The one thing many forget that a standalone offers is data. The added features and customization are great, but having datalogging built into the ECU makes it much easier to go quicker and compare run to run. If you can spend a bit more to get more from your money, the extra few thousand could save quite a bit (as we've seen with David Kims 997 which in AWD format on radials managed to work it's way up to 2nd on the Porsche drag list with a stock engine vs. some 30-40k setups with build engines and sticky tires).
We've gotten off topic here, but that's not always a bad thing.
Last edited by onelove; 01-02-2009 at 06:23 PM.
#58
01-02-2009 | 07:20 PM
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Flash:
I think the bottom line is this:
if you just drive your car on the street or track at 1 boost level, you don't need an EBC. If you would like the ability to put in some race gas and turn the boost up a bit once in a while, you NEED a boost controller, or the ability to reflash your car as necessary. People that have a spare ECU don't need an EBC, they just have to change boxes, not as convenient for sure, but the potential for more power, definitely. For those of us used to tuning our own cars with AEM, F.A.S.T., etc... a standalone isn't such a foreign thing.
I think the bottom line is this:
if you just drive your car on the street or track at 1 boost level, you don't need an EBC. If you would like the ability to put in some race gas and turn the boost up a bit once in a while, you NEED a boost controller, or the ability to reflash your car as necessary. People that have a spare ECU don't need an EBC, they just have to change boxes, not as convenient for sure, but the potential for more power, definitely. For those of us used to tuning our own cars with AEM, F.A.S.T., etc... a standalone isn't such a foreign thing.
I probably will get the EBC as changing out an ECU is not convenient at all.
And I have FAST on my Camaro also.
#59
01-02-2009 | 07:59 PM
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can you shed some light on this? starts with V and it is not HKS?
