How much power can the 996TTs make using 91 Octane
#47
11-11-2009, 03:56 PM
I ran 1.0 bar on a totally stock motor using 91 oct (CA Gas) and then switched to VP 103 and saw a huge diff. Then went to VP 109 and again saw a big diff. I ran 1.1 - 1.2 bar on VP 109 for the last 4500 miles.
#49
11-11-2009, 04:10 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: La Jolla, CA
Age: 45
Posts: 111
Rep Power: 24 
you're telling me, that knowing how much power a car with known hardware running 91 octane can make is irrelevant? Not so. No less irrelevant that what a car using C16 or VP109, or meth is. This data tells you how good the tuning and hardware combination is. Very relevant.
additionally, go look at the perofrmance data on the sticky for our cars and compare that to some factory supercars listed there as well. You will see that the factory cars did not have some race tune running C16..lol. They run pump gas, usually 91-93. So in effect our times are not really comparable to factory cars no more than a dragster is when running race fuel, nitro methane, etc.
it is amazing to me that cars can have ***** on C16 and act totally neutered on pump gas.
additionally, go look at the perofrmance data on the sticky for our cars and compare that to some factory supercars listed there as well. You will see that the factory cars did not have some race tune running C16..lol. They run pump gas, usually 91-93. So in effect our times are not really comparable to factory cars no more than a dragster is when running race fuel, nitro methane, etc.
it is amazing to me that cars can have ***** on C16 and act totally neutered on pump gas.
#50
11-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Smaller forced induction engines require gas that resists detonation. Thus our cars are very limited if forced to use CA 91 octane.
That is a simple fact and not accurately characterized as a fundamental misunderstanding of combustion, indeed the opposite is true.
That is a simple fact and not accurately characterized as a fundamental misunderstanding of combustion, indeed the opposite is true.
#51
11-11-2009, 04:38 PM
[quote=Dr_jitsu;2616594]Smaller forced induction engines require gas that resists detonation. Thus our cars are very limited if forced to use CA 91 octane.quote]
This limitation is a fact for ALL engines. As Law Jolla has said, MANY things can cause a motor to detonate, not just low octane fuel. If an engine has been exposed to detonation for a long period of time, it will naturally be more susceptible to detonation as the pitting and such become hot spots aiding preignition. The answer to the original question is: whatever level the tuner feels the engine can operate safely at, which won't be known until the tuning process after many logs are reviewed.
This limitation is a fact for ALL engines. As Law Jolla has said, MANY things can cause a motor to detonate, not just low octane fuel. If an engine has been exposed to detonation for a long period of time, it will naturally be more susceptible to detonation as the pitting and such become hot spots aiding preignition. The answer to the original question is: whatever level the tuner feels the engine can operate safely at, which won't be known until the tuning process after many logs are reviewed.
#52
11-11-2009, 04:44 PM
first of all, when one does not agree with your viewpoint it is not pig headed, it is a difference of opinion. It is to bad that you have such a crap attitude. you explained everything quite well above, but that was not the answer to the original question, which can be answered. you obviously are pig headed yourself and fail to see the meaning, and you disregard it by claiming your superiority and how there cannot possibly be another opinion. How pompous and arrogant.
#54
11-11-2009, 04:47 PM
The original point of my first post was an answer to this question. How much power can you make using x octane is a non-question -- the simple answer is how ever much you want to make. I've seen 3.0L turbocharged motors make 860 at the ground on 91. Undoubtedly they could make 1000 or any other obscene number. (Also, there seems to be a perception that higher octane fuels make more HP when, in fact, the exact opposite is true)
The more probative question is how much power can reliably me made on 91 octane? That question was batted around on the previous pages.
The more probative question is how much power can reliably me made on 91 octane? That question was batted around on the previous pages.
oh, and if you have the info on where a 3L motor is making 860 to the wheels on 91 with no other AIDS such as NOS, Meth, etc, please show me. I would definitely be interested in the technology to get there as it is obvious that no one in here has it.
#55
11-11-2009, 06:02 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: La Jolla, CA
Age: 45
Posts: 111
Rep Power: 24 first of all, when one does not agree with your viewpoint it is not pig headed, it is a difference of opinion. It is to bad that you have such a crap attitude. you explained everything quite well above, but that was not the answer to the original question, which can be answered. you obviously are pig headed yourself and fail to see the meaning, and you disregard it by claiming your superiority and how there cannot possibly be another opinion. How pompous and arrogant.
Question: How much power can you make on 91 octane?
Only Right Answer: Any amount of power you can reasonably dream
Someday you'll realize that your question is silly. The only room for debate, substantiated with math, physics, and empirical data, is what margin of safe operation is compromised for each incremental raise over factory levels.
Like I said, your question is analogous to asking what color you can paint your car. Silly question. What color would look good on your car? Good question.
You don't need to get defensive. I'm happy to help. But there's no sense in correcting someone when they're right -- we've all naive in different areas. No shame in that.
#56
11-11-2009, 06:05 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: La Jolla, CA
Age: 45
Posts: 111
Rep Power: 24
[quote=ttboost;2616601]
Dead on! Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I ever could!
Smaller forced induction engines require gas that resists detonation. Thus our cars are very limited if forced to use CA 91 octane.quote]
This limitation is a fact for ALL engines. As Law Jolla has said, MANY things can cause a motor to detonate, not just low octane fuel. If an engine has been exposed to detonation for a long period of time, it will naturally be more susceptible to detonation as the pitting and such become hot spots aiding preignition. The answer to the original question is: whatever level the tuner feels the engine can operate safely at, which won't be known until the tuning process after many logs are reviewed.
This limitation is a fact for ALL engines. As Law Jolla has said, MANY things can cause a motor to detonate, not just low octane fuel. If an engine has been exposed to detonation for a long period of time, it will naturally be more susceptible to detonation as the pitting and such become hot spots aiding preignition. The answer to the original question is: whatever level the tuner feels the engine can operate safely at, which won't be known until the tuning process after many logs are reviewed.
#57
11-11-2009, 06:08 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: La Jolla, CA
Age: 45
Posts: 111
Rep Power: 24
You've missed the entire point. Obviously I cannot get through to you, so I'm hopeful that someone else can.
#58
11-11-2009, 06:13 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: La Jolla, CA
Age: 45
Posts: 111
Rep Power: 24 I'll say it one more time... You make *ANY* amount of horsepower on 91 octane. On 87 octane. On 116 octane. That's not the question! The question is what *SHOULD* you make on 91 octane given your tolerance for rebuilds. Porsche engineers weighed in with their comfortable tolerance -- 420 HP and .7 bar.
#60
11-11-2009, 06:41 PM
This is physics my friend. Physics doesn't have opinions -- those are called theories. In the area we are discussing, there are no theories (opinions), just facts. There is one right answer and one million wrong ones.
Question: How much power can you make on 91 octane?
Only Right Answer: Any amount of power you can reasonably dream
Someday you'll realize that your question is silly. The only room for debate, substantiated with math, physics, and empirical data, is what margin of safe operation is compromised for each incremental raise over factory levels.
Like I said, your question is analogous to asking what color you can paint your car. Silly question. What color would look good on your car? Good question.
You don't need to get defensive. I'm happy to help. But there's no sense in correcting someone when they're right -- we've all naive in different areas. No shame in that.
Question: How much power can you make on 91 octane?
Only Right Answer: Any amount of power you can reasonably dream
Someday you'll realize that your question is silly. The only room for debate, substantiated with math, physics, and empirical data, is what margin of safe operation is compromised for each incremental raise over factory levels.
Like I said, your question is analogous to asking what color you can paint your car. Silly question. What color would look good on your car? Good question.
You don't need to get defensive. I'm happy to help. But there's no sense in correcting someone when they're right -- we've all naive in different areas. No shame in that.
post 9 provided an answer from one individual regarding his setup on 91 octane. that was the most appropriate answer, not is full of info as yours but direct to the point. I got this much HP on 91 octane using K24's and GIAC tune. Perfect. A few more like that to give an idea of what can be done. here is another on 93 octane and still relevant
I have had this setup for about 2 months now. All I can say is I am very impressed with the EPL tune and many thanks to Tony. Car runs great and can keep up with other cars with more stuff and boost , beats tuned GTR's and tuned Z06's, 600 cc bikes etc....
Thanks to Al at CPT, excellent shop and highly recommend them for those in Chicago area. I went from K16 flash to K16/16g to k24/18g in 3 months...i think I am finally satisfied!
My setup:
K24/18G ( Thanks to Titan Motorsports , Great service and unbeatable price!)
1 Bar file running 93 Octane
Milltek Catless Exhaust
5 Bar FPR
Stock Clutch
Dyno pulls were done on a Dynodynamics Dyno which is one of the lowest reading dyno out there. Temperature was in 60's if i remember right.
Now i have no idea what it will feel like with 1.3 bar race gas tune!!...
Thanks to Al at CPT, excellent shop and highly recommend them for those in Chicago area. I went from K16 flash to K16/16g to k24/18g in 3 months...i think I am finally satisfied!
My setup:
K24/18G ( Thanks to Titan Motorsports , Great service and unbeatable price!)
1 Bar file running 93 Octane
Milltek Catless Exhaust
5 Bar FPR
Stock Clutch
Dyno pulls were done on a Dynodynamics Dyno which is one of the lowest reading dyno out there. Temperature was in 60's if i remember right.
Now i have no idea what it will feel like with 1.3 bar race gas tune!!...
I see quite a number of high hp claims from various tuners using 700, 800, and 800+hp packages. It's though to tell if these claims are using pump gas (91 Octane) or all race gas. What is the upper limits of power (6TT can make on pump gas? Is building up the engine internals necessary for pump gas?
Thx
Thx