I have to admit I learned quite a bit in the two days at Evolution about tuning, tuning methods, and tuning philosophy. I chose not to have a boost controller in my car for some specific reasons. This is not a EBC vs Motronic flamefest, so lets keep it that way. MY reasons for sticking with a non EBC car was to let Motronic do what it does best, protect the lump. Granted, Motronic isnt a savior for dumb owners but it does give a measure of protection for a car like mine that will see much track time and the subsequent heat issues associated with it.
The following is a series of dyno graphs after we had final tuning on the pump file. The pump file is about 650AWHP/650AWTQ, we had made as much as 673AWHP, but I wanted it turned down for an added safety margin. Todd wanted to show me, and to verify, that the ECU was doing its job in limiting boost and timing with substantial heat soak. We did 7 consectutive dyno pulls in a span of 11 minutes with no cooling off for the car or ICs. The Mustang log starts at 17:07:14 and finishes at 17:18:42 after all the dyno runs. You can see on the graphs that the ECU is continually pulling timing and boost as it gets hot, reducing HP and TQ. We started at a maximum of 652AWHP and 657AWTQ and were down to 607AWHP and 608 AWTQ after 11 minutes... a loss of 45AWHP and 49AWTQ. The man can tune!!

 

Here is the final graph overlay of Race Vs Pump Vs Stock.....

 

Very good illustration Kevin!! Congrats again on the fantastic numbers.

Since you are not using an EBC, how long does it take the ECU to recognize that you have switched from pump to racing fuel in the tank?

 

Kevin, very interesting. So first question: Pump gas file is 93 right?

I noticed that there was not much a difference between the 93 oct gas and the 103 octane gas on the pump file. Have you run both fuels to see if there is a seat of the pants difference? I ask because there is an extreme seat of the pants difference when I run some race fuel in my pump file, but mine is 91 file, which is way more conservative (Denver fuel sucks) and hence anything would be an improvement, even an alcoholics ****.

looks like the ecu is doing the job it is supposed to. No safeties were disabled. 70 ft-lbs and 120 whp difference from pump to race is huge.

 

Not sure I understand this post? When you say adaptation, do you mean the ECU is learning something? It doesn't sound to me like this has anything to do with pump gas or race fuel? It sounds to me the ECU is just adapting to changes in cylinder temp and retarding timing and/or boost to protect itself, which IS the advantage of keeping the factory boost control. Does the stock ECU tune do this?

 

Correct,it is comforting to know that the inherent protection of motronic is still working to protect the motor if need be.

 

If you read the post you will see it has nothing to do with fuel per se. We were just using the finished pump file as an example.This was an illustration as to why I,myself,me wanted my car tuned within the framework of Motronic boost control. Those graphs are showing what I wanted my ECU to do when it senses the engine getting hot from say a track day. I want it to pull boost. I want it to do what Porsche programmed it to do....

 

Kevin,
How long does it take the ECU to change between pump and race gas files once you change the fuel?

 

It doesn't do that. It will adapt up or down with the race or pump file but not between them. I have separate files for race and pump, each having decidedly different boost and timing maps.

 

Thanks
How do you load the different files? Do you have a flash loader?

 

Kevin-
Is it the tune or the factory motronic parameters pulling timing? On the pump/race question, would the answer be it doesn't matter because the ecu detects and retards? That is, higher octane, less detonation so later pull back? I'm just trying to get my arms around it.....
Thanks bro, this is the kind of knowledge sharing that is so valuable. Nice to see this in between the 50 sniping posts in a row that seem to be the norm lately!

 

[quote=$manager;2421187]Kevin-
Is it the tune or the factory motronic parameters pulling timing? On the pump/race question, would the answer be it doesn't matter because the ecu detects and retards? That is, higher octane, less detonation so later pull back? quote]

I believe that is exactly right. There are a lot of people driving around thinking they have this "adapative" technology that allows an ECU to automatically change between pump and race files. I don't think there is an ECU that ADDS timing when you need or want it, it can only retard it when it doesn't want it. So you tune as aggressive as you want for pump, which MIGHT retard a few degrees, but when you run race gas, no retard, more power.
I know that older style ECU's like F.A.S.T. has the ability to tune by MAP in which you have fuel/boost/timing tables in which, yes, you can have pump gas tuned up to a certain point and have the higher part of the table tuned for pump, however, the lower end of the tables STILL have to be "pump friendly". If I am wrong , by all means let me know. I would be VERY interested in an ECU that "learns".

 

Todd has an ECU system that allows two files to be switched back and forth on the fly. It is just about finished, and my car was to be the first ,but he wanted a bit more time to test it. It looks like a slick setup and my car is currently wired up for it, so once it is available all I have to do it flip a switch between pump and race. Currently , I am resigned to using two ECUs....
It changes immediately for the two fuels since each file has different boost and timing maps...

 

It is just the factory Bosch ECU doing what Porsche programmed it to do, all I was doing was trying to make an illustration why I wanted my car tuned with factory boost control. If my car was on the dyno with an EBC it would not have pulled any boost back during those 7 dyno runs in 11 minutes. Both setups will pull back timing....Apples and Oranges...

 

Seriously great post Kevin... you should show the 997TT guys this too. I explain this to folks on a daily basis