Experiened DE Drivers - please step on inside - a few questions
#1
06-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 172
Rep Power: 26 
Experienced DE Drivers - please step on inside - a few questions
OK Fellow 6speeders, I just drove my 3rd DE day in as many months. I am hooked, addicted, committed to driving. The whole driving experience/problem solving of accelerating, braking and turning at speed with some semblance of car balance is so very compelling. Well, you already know this or wouldn't be in this thread. So I have a couple of noob questions for DE/Lapping day drivers:
Car I’m driving is an ‘04 996TT X50 cab – no mods other than a OEM 996 SSK.
1) 1st DE day I was in group "D", 2nd DE day was "C-Instructed", and yesterday was "C-solo". While I really enjoyed driving solo, I realize I am still making "mistakes" and want both to move up to "B" yet still take advantage of instruction (the “C” group is super crowded with a huge range of skills and questionable “awareness” capabilities in some drivers. What’s the best way to “know when you’re ready to advance? I don’t want to be guilty of wanting to advance beyond my capabilities, but still am pushing to be in a group of drivers who are driving a similar “pace.” Because of some odd circumstance, I ended up running in the “B” group accidentally in the final session and enjoyed it fine without any concerns.
2) I am going through my tires at a prodigious rate. I use my car as a daily grocery getter as well as the track Ideally I may have to go to two sets of tires, but for now I am happy with the rubber on them Bridgestone Potenza S0-2A's. These tires seem like a great combination of street and track. I live in Seattle and it's wet here half the year, so a tire that can handle a little dampness is a good thing. But I want more on the track. Yesterday by session #3 the fronts were definitely getting "greasy" in the downhill hairpins, and I was starting to push a bit, needing to drive a different line to take some of that out. So, question is: What's a good all-round tire that will give me more at the track without getting me killed when we get a little weather? I know this is like asking what flavor of ice cream do you like, but a few solid suggestions would be really welcome.
3) I was keenly aware of PSM kicking in consistently in a few key spots on the track. Mainly, one area is a high speed left-hander that is about a 90 degree direction change that ends up off-camber on the track-out. PSM grabs my front, inside (driver’s side) brake for a tenth of a second (or two??), as well as some other traction control management. My question is, am I doing something I shouldn’t be doing and therefore change my line or entrance speed, or should I just let PSM do it’s thing and let it “correct” the car? It seems to me that theoretically, I should be able to drive with PSM off, and therefore I am doing something “sloppily” that is causing it to engage. Thoughts?
Thanks in advance to everyone!
Car I’m driving is an ‘04 996TT X50 cab – no mods other than a OEM 996 SSK.
1) 1st DE day I was in group "D", 2nd DE day was "C-Instructed", and yesterday was "C-solo". While I really enjoyed driving solo, I realize I am still making "mistakes" and want both to move up to "B" yet still take advantage of instruction (the “C” group is super crowded with a huge range of skills and questionable “awareness” capabilities in some drivers. What’s the best way to “know when you’re ready to advance? I don’t want to be guilty of wanting to advance beyond my capabilities, but still am pushing to be in a group of drivers who are driving a similar “pace.” Because of some odd circumstance, I ended up running in the “B” group accidentally in the final session and enjoyed it fine without any concerns.
2) I am going through my tires at a prodigious rate. I use my car as a daily grocery getter as well as the track Ideally I may have to go to two sets of tires, but for now I am happy with the rubber on them Bridgestone Potenza S0-2A's. These tires seem like a great combination of street and track. I live in Seattle and it's wet here half the year, so a tire that can handle a little dampness is a good thing. But I want more on the track. Yesterday by session #3 the fronts were definitely getting "greasy" in the downhill hairpins, and I was starting to push a bit, needing to drive a different line to take some of that out. So, question is: What's a good all-round tire that will give me more at the track without getting me killed when we get a little weather? I know this is like asking what flavor of ice cream do you like, but a few solid suggestions would be really welcome.
3) I was keenly aware of PSM kicking in consistently in a few key spots on the track. Mainly, one area is a high speed left-hander that is about a 90 degree direction change that ends up off-camber on the track-out. PSM grabs my front, inside (driver’s side) brake for a tenth of a second (or two??), as well as some other traction control management. My question is, am I doing something I shouldn’t be doing and therefore change my line or entrance speed, or should I just let PSM do it’s thing and let it “correct” the car? It seems to me that theoretically, I should be able to drive with PSM off, and therefore I am doing something “sloppily” that is causing it to engage. Thoughts?
Thanks in advance to everyone!
Last edited by Supercollider; 06-11-2009 at 10:20 AM.
#2
06-11-2009, 10:41 AM
just my opinion... be patient and don't be afraid to progress slowly as you move up in groups... I use my car as partial daily driver as well, and I ended up compromising on Falken Azenis... they are great for both track and street... wear rating of 200, so i think less than your Potenzas possibly, but i've loved them so far this season. As a beginner, I wouldn't turn PSM off, it's very likely saving your A** on that turn. Good luck!
#3
06-11-2009, 11:06 AM
I have had great luck with the Michelin PS2's. Great combination tire, although I just started overdriving them and am moving to R compounds. A great analogy I like is, driving is like peeling off the layers of an onion. As soon as you get proficient at one skill the next area that needs work reveals itself. Also, each instructor has a different view or way of looking at things and adds to your bag of tricks. I would let them decide when you are ready to move up rather than you deciding. Ego can get you in big trouble fast with the turbo. I always leave PSM on, but that's just me. I'd rather see the light flash than meet Mr. Tire Wall. Good luck and enjoy.
#5
06-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MPLS, MN USA
Age: 63
Posts: 5,710
Rep Power: 464 
Didnt the last few One Lap of America's run on Michelin PS2's?
I have done the following on PS2's
Brainerd Intl Raceway == 1:52.1
Road America == 2:39
Top Speed on these tires == 196 mph
Quartermile == 11.03
And driven in all kinds of weather conditions.
These tires just seem to Work. Period!
I have done the following on PS2's
Brainerd Intl Raceway == 1:52.1
Road America == 2:39
Top Speed on these tires == 196 mph
Quartermile == 11.03
And driven in all kinds of weather conditions.
These tires just seem to Work. Period!
#6
06-11-2009, 11:38 AM
here is my first suggestion as a Nationally Certified Porsche Club instructor and racer get way more instruction before you drive a 400+ hp car by yourself on a track.
what event are you driving at that would let you progress that fast? certainly not PCA?
sounds to me like the lower groups are crowded so they are pushing people through, very dangerous! also not fair to you. you paid your money get some instruction.
I would certainly leave the car alone and just get new street tires (MPS2's are best street tire for the track IMO) also have your shop do an aggressive street alignment.
you also can flip the rear tires side to side and get more life out of them.
what books and videos of track driving have you studied so far? if none very good ideas.
take your time and get as MUCH instruction as possible. no one should be driving their third track event solo in a TT I dont care how "fast" they "think" they are.
please look into other driving clubs or venues that are more interested in YOU and YOU learning how to drive. do you rev match and heel toe shift smoothly? if not you would never be solo at PCA.
I teach for alot of organizations so not harping on PCA cause they have alot of issues also but in general you get the best safest instruction from your local PCA club, then when you are solo there you can venture out.
always remember you can always get more experienced drivers and instructors to ride with you after you become solo, it is a never ending learning process
dont get sucked into trying to improve the car. the car is superior already gain the appropriate driving skills first, then brakes, suspension, and finally power upgrades.
you are in a cab which is a track car disadvantage so I wouldnt put too much into that car for the track cause not worth it.
none of the above was intended to be demeaning or insulting just trying to help. if I have underestimated something let me know and can help you work on whatever level of car or driver you like, cause been there and continue to be there almost every weekend, so know how you feel!!
my 2 cents
tom
what event are you driving at that would let you progress that fast? certainly not PCA?
sounds to me like the lower groups are crowded so they are pushing people through, very dangerous! also not fair to you. you paid your money get some instruction.
I would certainly leave the car alone and just get new street tires (MPS2's are best street tire for the track IMO) also have your shop do an aggressive street alignment.
you also can flip the rear tires side to side and get more life out of them.
what books and videos of track driving have you studied so far? if none very good ideas.
take your time and get as MUCH instruction as possible. no one should be driving their third track event solo in a TT I dont care how "fast" they "think" they are.
please look into other driving clubs or venues that are more interested in YOU and YOU learning how to drive. do you rev match and heel toe shift smoothly? if not you would never be solo at PCA.
I teach for alot of organizations so not harping on PCA cause they have alot of issues also but in general you get the best safest instruction from your local PCA club, then when you are solo there you can venture out.
always remember you can always get more experienced drivers and instructors to ride with you after you become solo, it is a never ending learning process
dont get sucked into trying to improve the car. the car is superior already gain the appropriate driving skills first, then brakes, suspension, and finally power upgrades.
you are in a cab which is a track car disadvantage so I wouldnt put too much into that car for the track cause not worth it.
none of the above was intended to be demeaning or insulting just trying to help. if I have underestimated something let me know and can help you work on whatever level of car or driver you like, cause been there and continue to be there almost every weekend, so know how you feel!!
my 2 cents
tom
Last edited by tom kerr; 06-11-2009 at 11:52 AM.
#7
06-11-2009, 01:09 PM
I would echo Tom's comments about driving alone. Listen to him- he has tons of experience to share. Like you, I started a few years ago and have done 10 DE's now with about 22 track days, all at Mid Ohio. The last two events, I've done full days solo, but somewhere during the weekend, I always have an instructor drive with me. There is so much to learn. The more I go, the more I realize how little I know.
I don't know how you feel in the car, but with stock seats and belts, I felt like I was sitting on the seats rather than feeling attached to the car. Once you do more and find you really like it, you should consider GT3 or like seats, 6 point belts, roll bar and a Hans device. That made a world of difference for me. Also, if you search the threads here, you will find that the stock front brakes have their limitations. I upgraded to GT3 brakes and Pagid pads and LOVE them. I recently did suspension mods which helped a bunch. I ran the Pilot Sport 2's until they wore out. They were definitely good. Just got a set of Sport Cups so I will be interested in seeing how they perform next month.
I don't drive my car on the street much anymore, but with the things I've done my car is still perfectly streetable. Lastly, don't worry about which run group you are in. It isn't a race. You may feel a lot more intimidated at your level in an advanced group. The upper groups have some incredible drivers. Most of all- ENJOY!!!
I don't know how you feel in the car, but with stock seats and belts, I felt like I was sitting on the seats rather than feeling attached to the car. Once you do more and find you really like it, you should consider GT3 or like seats, 6 point belts, roll bar and a Hans device. That made a world of difference for me. Also, if you search the threads here, you will find that the stock front brakes have their limitations. I upgraded to GT3 brakes and Pagid pads and LOVE them. I recently did suspension mods which helped a bunch. I ran the Pilot Sport 2's until they wore out. They were definitely good. Just got a set of Sport Cups so I will be interested in seeing how they perform next month.
I don't drive my car on the street much anymore, but with the things I've done my car is still perfectly streetable. Lastly, don't worry about which run group you are in. It isn't a race. You may feel a lot more intimidated at your level in an advanced group. The upper groups have some incredible drivers. Most of all- ENJOY!!!
Last edited by scott; 06-11-2009 at 03:19 PM.
Trending Topics
#9
06-11-2009, 06:00 PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 172
Rep Power: 26 
here is my first suggestion as a Nationally Certified Porsche Club instructor and racer get way more instruction before you drive a 400+ hp car by yourself on a track.
what event are you driving at that would let you progress that fast? certainly not PCA?
sounds to me like the lower groups are crowded so they are pushing people through, very dangerous! also not fair to you. you paid your money get some instruction.
I would certainly leave the car alone and just get new street tires (MPS2's are best street tire for the track IMO) also have your shop do an aggressive street alignment.
you also can flip the rear tires side to side and get more life out of them.
what books and videos of track driving have you studied so far? if none very good ideas.
take your time and get as MUCH instruction as possible. no one should be driving their third track event solo in a TT I dont care how "fast" they "think" they are.
please look into other driving clubs or venues that are more interested in YOU and YOU learning how to drive. do you rev match and heel toe shift smoothly? if not you would never be solo at PCA.
I teach for alot of organizations so not harping on PCA cause they have alot of issues also but in general you get the best safest instruction from your local PCA club, then when you are solo there you can venture out.
always remember you can always get more experienced drivers and instructors to ride with you after you become solo, it is a never ending learning process
dont get sucked into trying to improve the car. the car is superior already gain the appropriate driving skills first, then brakes, suspension, and finally power upgrades.
you are in a cab which is a track car disadvantage so I wouldnt put too much into that car for the track cause not worth it.
none of the above was intended to be demeaning or insulting just trying to help. if I have underestimated something let me know and can help you work on whatever level of car or driver you like, cause been there and continue to be there almost every weekend, so know how you feel!!
my 2 cents
tom
what event are you driving at that would let you progress that fast? certainly not PCA?
sounds to me like the lower groups are crowded so they are pushing people through, very dangerous! also not fair to you. you paid your money get some instruction.
I would certainly leave the car alone and just get new street tires (MPS2's are best street tire for the track IMO) also have your shop do an aggressive street alignment.
you also can flip the rear tires side to side and get more life out of them.
what books and videos of track driving have you studied so far? if none very good ideas.
take your time and get as MUCH instruction as possible. no one should be driving their third track event solo in a TT I dont care how "fast" they "think" they are.
please look into other driving clubs or venues that are more interested in YOU and YOU learning how to drive. do you rev match and heel toe shift smoothly? if not you would never be solo at PCA.
I teach for alot of organizations so not harping on PCA cause they have alot of issues also but in general you get the best safest instruction from your local PCA club, then when you are solo there you can venture out.
always remember you can always get more experienced drivers and instructors to ride with you after you become solo, it is a never ending learning process
dont get sucked into trying to improve the car. the car is superior already gain the appropriate driving skills first, then brakes, suspension, and finally power upgrades.
you are in a cab which is a track car disadvantage so I wouldnt put too much into that car for the track cause not worth it.
none of the above was intended to be demeaning or insulting just trying to help. if I have underestimated something let me know and can help you work on whatever level of car or driver you like, cause been there and continue to be there almost every weekend, so know how you feel!!
my 2 cents
tom
- Yes; PCA.
- D group was least crowded - don't think they were pushing, but I'm a Noob so can't really say for sure
-I've done a few days at Panoz some years back, and have read the "Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques by Ross Bentley" - certainly not a lot of reading - open to suggestions.
- My rev matching could be much better. Interesting "metric" to know for determining "solo" capabilities. I guess I wasn't that surprised that I was advanced to "C-solo. I've been driving for a long time, in my 40's and had a few turbos, although not Porsches. I've done a little autocrossing, but much slower speeds. I'm a eager student, pick up certain things quickly and other things not so quickly. I'm attracted to track days because I know there is a lot going on and a lot to manage. Smoothness is my goal and I know I'm not there (yet.)
- I agree on not putting too much into the cab for being a "racer" - I understand the limitations/dichotomy but a cab is what I have and want for daily driving.
- I'm still very open to instruction - wasn't trying to covey that I thought I was "done" with learning/instruction. When I'm at that point I'll quit because it won't be entertaining to me if there is nothing left to learn.
Thanks for taking the time to write - I appreciate the input.
Last edited by Supercollider; 06-11-2009 at 06:04 PM.
#10
06-11-2009, 06:52 PM
Registered User
I've got to agree with Tom Kerr on this... It's called High Performance Drivers Education! I don't know your background or how well you learn, or what other things you've done in life. But when you're at the track, doing an HPDE, it is all about learning. I learn when I seek out instructors to teach me... Without them, you don't break bad habits, create new bad habits, and put yourself and other drivers at serious risk.
RED MIST is real... It gets the best of all of us...
I also did a lot of autocross in the early 90s, and won a regional combined modified and street performance championship (they didn't have enough cars to fill both classes so they combined us with the open wheel guys!) in 1995 thru the Virginia Motor Sport Club. Nothing I learned in autocrossing transfered to any of the tracks I've run at over the years, and I'm glad it didn't... Autocross is about as fun as watching grass grow these days.
I've done 22+ years worth of instructional driving thru work (previous career in federal law enforcement) and privately. Several things to be keenly aware of:
LOOK UP... Keep your vision as far down the road as you can... You should be focusing as far as the track pavement shows.
Last session of every day is the most dangerous. Always judge your conditioning before each session.
Even when it's raining, or when it's cold, DRINK FLUIDS and EAT FOOD. This sport requires a lot of the mind and body. Feed them and keep hydrated.
KEEP OFF - BACK OFF - YOU CAN'T PASS anyway... Save the nose of your car from needing repaint... Lay back until the last apex before the next passing zone, and get a run onto the passing zone. It'll save your paint, and de-stress the poor slob in front of you. Filling a guys mirrors with your car can cause him to drive with his mirrors and possibly pull you into his accident.
No matter how fast we get, or how fast we think we are, not riding with instructors does nothing to break us of our mistakes. Every time I go out on track I try to find a fast guy in a turbo and try to get a ride with him or get him to ride with me.
Don't do anything to the "power" of the car... I'd be looking at improving suspension and brake performance as you improve. Your reasons for killing tires could be answered if we knew your suspension settings...And I wouldn't run on anything other than PS2 or MPSCs. They simply WORK and WORK WELL for HPDE...
Lots of info on this site, and we're here to help... Welcome!
Mike
RED MIST is real... It gets the best of all of us...
I also did a lot of autocross in the early 90s, and won a regional combined modified and street performance championship (they didn't have enough cars to fill both classes so they combined us with the open wheel guys!) in 1995 thru the Virginia Motor Sport Club. Nothing I learned in autocrossing transfered to any of the tracks I've run at over the years, and I'm glad it didn't... Autocross is about as fun as watching grass grow these days.
I've done 22+ years worth of instructional driving thru work (previous career in federal law enforcement) and privately. Several things to be keenly aware of:
LOOK UP... Keep your vision as far down the road as you can... You should be focusing as far as the track pavement shows.
Last session of every day is the most dangerous. Always judge your conditioning before each session.
Even when it's raining, or when it's cold, DRINK FLUIDS and EAT FOOD. This sport requires a lot of the mind and body. Feed them and keep hydrated.
KEEP OFF - BACK OFF - YOU CAN'T PASS anyway... Save the nose of your car from needing repaint... Lay back until the last apex before the next passing zone, and get a run onto the passing zone. It'll save your paint, and de-stress the poor slob in front of you. Filling a guys mirrors with your car can cause him to drive with his mirrors and possibly pull you into his accident.
No matter how fast we get, or how fast we think we are, not riding with instructors does nothing to break us of our mistakes. Every time I go out on track I try to find a fast guy in a turbo and try to get a ride with him or get him to ride with me.
Don't do anything to the "power" of the car... I'd be looking at improving suspension and brake performance as you improve. Your reasons for killing tires could be answered if we knew your suspension settings...And I wouldn't run on anything other than PS2 or MPSCs. They simply WORK and WORK WELL for HPDE...
Lots of info on this site, and we're here to help... Welcome!
Mike
Last edited by Mikelly; 06-11-2009 at 06:54 PM.
#12
06-11-2009, 08:34 PM
what books and videos of track driving have you studied so far? if none very good ideas.
Hey Tom... Im curious. What books do you recommend on the topic of better track Driving?
Avi
Hey Tom... Im curious. What books do you recommend on the topic of better track Driving?
Avi
#13
06-12-2009, 06:27 AM
Here are 3 good ones.
Porsche High Performance Driving Handbook by Vic Elford
Sports Car and Competition Driving by Paul Frere
Going Faster from The Skip Barber Racing School- by far the most technical and in depth
Porsche High Performance Driving Handbook by Vic Elford
Sports Car and Competition Driving by Paul Frere
Going Faster from The Skip Barber Racing School- by far the most technical and in depth
#14
06-12-2009, 08:52 AM
really nothing is more frustrating as an instructor for a student to show up totally unprepared and expect you to teach him everything. if the guy doesnt know what an apex is we really have to start from nothing and very slow learning curve.
like my surgical residents, they show up the morning of surgery thinking they are going to have me hand them the knife and them do the surgery. I will gladly do so after they correctly answer all my questions and demonstrate they have studied and done their homework and are ready to be taught.
same at the track, no homework, no knife!!
#15
06-12-2009, 09:57 AM
Ditto on the 3 books mentioned above...I re-read them regularly and find interesting nuggets every time. Tom and Mike got it covered...then it is just seat time. Maybe start with a dedicated week long program and sign up for a bunch of DE's. Seek out different instructors as well...I have learned just as much from 914/944 guys as I have from the racers - vehicle dynamics, racing lines, rotation, all that fun stuff.