Hello..

I read through this thread..
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...&threadid=8288

It had some good information but the thread starter indicated that the thread diverged from the original topic so I am starting a new one here.


My questions are for E46 M3 current or former owners that have moved to 996TT (or vice versa). I am curious on more detailed thoughts on the move in regards to:

1. Performance (straight line / road track)
2. Maintenance costs
3. Dollar to performance MOD ratio
4. Every day drivability

I am leaning towards the 996TT in the near future as my next car but just want to get some additional opinions on the car compared to the current M3.

For me, the thing I love the most about the M3 is it's visceral acceleration and high redline (8KRPM). The car is very fun to drive but at times lacks the torque I am looking for.

Another thing is that the M3 (Naturally aspirated) is relatively hard to modify for engine performance gains vs a TURBO'ed car (i.e. 996TT). For about $4K, you can get a significant boost (EVO stg 2) vs going something like a Dinan S (~$5K) for the E46 M3 which gives very little engine HP gains.

What are everyones thoughts?

 

om tuuner i know T had an m3 that he had to give back to the dealer.... i know he's happy with the turbo

 

Get the TT. There is no comparison. The M3/5 is a sporty ,sweet, nice,GT style........Sedan. IMHO.

 

Yup. I had an E46 M3 Convertible with SMG. The car had lots of problems from a maintenance standpoint.

Regarding the engine, there is just no comparison. The M3 revs quite high but lacks in the torque category. It really isn't feasible to make an apples to apples comparison to these two vehicles.

I really like the M3 steering wheel and the SMG option was ok. The car handle ok but had very heavy understeer. Kinda heavy (but mine was a cab).

M3 cannot compare to the TT in straight line or track performance. Maintenance costs are included with the M3. My TT has been trouble free (knock on wood) and I only have to worry about the oil change. Dollar to performance mod ratio is not even close. The TT can be modded to add almost a 100 HP with relatively low cost (just some ECU tuning). The M3 sucks up tons of money for relatively low HP gains. I try to drive my TT everyday. No problem with that...the only issue is leaving it parked somewhere out of my sight.

The other thing to watch out for is BMW customer service. Worst I have ever seen. I finally had to retain an attorney and get my money back on a Lemon Law case.

20C4S is also a former owner.

T

 

I think that I can answer this question seeing as I own both an E46 M3 and a 911 Turbo Cab.

I drove the E46 M3 for 2 years (Summer and Winter), but now that I got the 911 Turbo, I'm only going to be driving the M3 in the winter.

1. Performance (straight line / road track)
The 911 Turbo blows the M3 away in both categories (moreso in straight line performance). There is much less body roll and less dive under braking. However, I feel that the braking performance of both cars are pretty much the same (although the Porsche brakes look much cooler).

2. Maintenance costs
Maintaining a Porsche is not cheap, but it's not expensive either. Seeing as BMW has free maintenence for the first few years of ownership, I'd definitely say that the M3 is the cheaper car to maintain. However, the $100+ oil changes the M3 requires will be a pain once the "Free Maintenence" is over.

3. Dollar to performance MOD ratio
The M3 is TERRIBLE for dollar to performance mod ratio. You could get Supersprint headers (useless), an exhaust (which is actually just a muffler) which is also pretty much useless, or an intake (even more useless), or an ECU (which is also pretty much useless - Trust me, I got the Shark Injector and it LOST me power). You could get all 4 mods at the same time and maybe end up with a car that has 10hp more than stock. If you're lucky, maybe you'll get 20hp more than stock!

Take a look at MPilot on the BMW Forums. The guy spent all this money and claimed all this power, but whenever he goes to the track, he stinks it up and has a million excuses.

On the other hand, you could spend $600 on an Upsolute chip for the 996 Turbo and get 90hp at the crank (probably more like 75hp at the crank). No headaches, no fuss etc. A Turbocharged car will always yield more gains than a NA car since it's so easy to just turn up the boost, or take advantage of a freer flowing exhaust.

4. Every day drivability
Well, as a daily driver, the 911 is a great car. It's not uncomfortable in any way and it's just perfect for me. I LOVE driving it. So much so that the M3 can sit for months at a time in the summer without even getting moved.

However, the M3 can seat 5 people, and 4 comfortably. The 911 can seat 2 comfortably and 2 with minimal comfort. I have fit 3 guys and 1 girl in my 996 Turbo, but it's not something your passengers would want to do for an extended period of time.

On the other hand, I have gone on 4hr plus road trips in my M3 with 4 people and a trunk full of luggage with NO problem.

Speaking of a trunk, the 911's trunk is more like a big glovebox. You can't fit much in it at all other than maybe a suitcase and some other similiar items.

If I lived in a sunny climate, I would drive the 911 Turbo all year round. Not only does the 911 Turbo accelerate hard, handle well, and brake well, it also turns a lot of heads (but not excessively so). With the M3, many people don't even know it's an M3 unless they're really into cars. When passengers sit in my 911, you can see the "Holy **** this car is cool" look on their face. With the M3, they thought it was cool, but it wasn't THAT cool. And plus, the chicks love the 911. To the ladies the M3 is just another BMW. A 3-series at that!

In the end though, it's hard to compare the M3 to the 911 Turbo since it's a car that costs more than twice as much money. But I really have to say, when I got my M3, it was nice, but I wasn't "In Love" so to speak. When I got my 911 Turbo, I was and still am "In Love" with how the car drives. One thing I started doing after I got the 911 Turbo was going out for Random rides to the middle of nowhere. It's just so much fun to just drive it, you don't even need a destination. Just a stretch of road to punch the gas and some curves to throw the car around on.

After driving the 911 Turbo and going back to the M3, the M3 feels VERY slow.

Check out the thread below for some pics of both my cars:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...threadid=13406

I hope this helps!

Cheers,
KJ

P.S. With my 911 Turbo Cab, I've taken out a Ferrari 360 Modena F1 (twice) on the highway as well as a Suzuki SV650 Motorcycle (twice) as well. I don't think the M3 could ever take out anything worth writing home about!

 

Never driven an E46 M3, just seen em on paper. That being said, I do have an opinion:

1. No comparison. Turbo is better in every respect.

2. Since BMW provides scheduled maintenance and Porsche does not, you will spend more on the Porsche. If you negotiate good service prices with your dealer or take it to an independent shop, you're looking at around $500 a year for the Turbo & $1000 every few years for major service. You will (theoretically, at least) have to replace tires more often on the Turbo - and these suckers ain't cheap. Expect to spend $1200 on a set of tires every 6-18 months depending on how you drive. Not sure about gas mileage on the M3, but my Turbo averages 16.9mpg overall.

3. Most mods for the Turbo are very expensive compared to mods for an M3. The good news is that if you shop right, you can create a supercar with the turbo for around $5,500:
- Upsolute Chip @ $500
- PSS9 Suspension @ $2500 (installed)
- Upgraded Air Cleaner @ $100
- Exhaust @ $2500 (installed)

I did everything above to my car for $4K (installed) because I went with a preowned suspension and a less expensive exhaust.

4. As other threads point out, the Turbo is probably the most daily driveable sports car on the road. All wheel drive, extremely reliable, and available roof rack system make this the only car you need.

 

I have owned two E46 M3, one LSB manual, one Silver SMG.

I say~ keep your M3 and get a turbo.

Totally different cars!
You will enjoy both.

1. Much much more torque on TT, but faster throttle response on M3 makes you feel fast as well. But M3 will never catch up with TT neither on straight line or track. Go test drive a TT, you will be able to tell the performance difference right away.

2. Maintenance costs on Porsche > BMW. Free oil change service on M3, $300+ on TT.

3. You can't really do much on the M3, TT has definitely more potential to mod, but doen't mean its cheaper. Once you got a TT, you're competing with other top of line cars. You will want to have much much more power. Then you will end up doing more and more mods on your TT cuz its got potential. Plus, parts on TT are more expensive than M3.

4. M3 is way more comfortable than TT. It's understandable and no excuse.


I like my M3 just as much as my TT, So I keep both.

 

ARLING WHAT CAR HAVENT U OWNED????

LOL BWAHAHA

 

Silver996TT, you are right!
I owned 2002 E46 M3 for 2 years, I loves my M3. Everything u said is correct.

I spent over $18K mod on the M3 but really no performance help, maybe looks different.

Remeber it's tough to sell the turbo in the future.
I sold my 2002 M3 this year within 3 days.

 

Not really a fair compare. You would have to compre the M3 with a NA 911. Then, what do you guys think?
I know he is going for the TT. Everyone knows the TT does and should kill the M3 in everyway except trunk size and costs to maintain

 

Thanks everyone for the great feedback..

Just some clarifications.
I know that the TT is a superior car in many aspects. I should have been clearer though. I was/am looking for emotional and logical differences in experiences between both cars and see what the additional benefits of the TT in the eyes of E46 M3 owners.

Clearly on paper and as you all have replied, in the real world, the TT is an awesome car in many regards.

I do have an SUV that I do all the winter/un-fun driving with so trunk space is not critical. Daily driver question is still important to me because I do plan on driving it as much as possible.

Lastly..

Is there any known reliability issues plagueing the TT? The M3
has been notorious for engine issues..

GL996TT: Why do you say it's harder to sell a TT? Because of the price points?

Again.. I am very impressed with the level of response and feedback thus far on this board.

 

Matt: I own a 2002 X50 with Ruf Suspension, GIAC Stage 4, Bailey DV's, Fabspeed SS exhaust, Ruf shortshift kit and B&M shifter. I also have a 2002 M3 with 6-speed manual. The M3 is stock. I am the original owner of each car. Neither car has had any problems to speak of. Frankly, I love each car. I would not want just one or the other, so I'm lucky to have both. They each fill a different need/want. The Porsche is a real kick in the *** car. It's loud; not very delicate. It's a Porsche which is to say that even though it's loud and fairly brutal, it's certainly not some unrefined buckboard like a big-block Camaro or even a Cobra. But it isn't for dancing either. (That's best left for a GT3.) But the moral equivalent of the GT3 in terms of the M3 would be the CSL which isn't available in the USA. Therefore, for dancing on the twistees where the natural responsiveness of a normally aspirated 8,000 RPM engine cant't be beat, get a M3. They both fill needs/wants I have and they are not interchangable. Frankly, when I'm driving to work I have more opportunities to use the potential of the M3 than I do of the turbo.

 

Matt's a friend of mine, and I've been telling him he needs to go out and TEST DRIVE the car. I drove a 996TT and was hooked. I will most likely be getting a Turbo by Spring, 05' but plan on keeping the M3 as well. The Turbo is extremely fast compared to the M3, but the M is a great all-around car. Comfortable; good handling; decent power; very good looks, and 8K RPM redline. Sport mode on and DSC off always makes for a fun drive in the M

-Awais

 

Just get a GT3 and you get the best of both worlds.

No need to mod a GT3 either... it's so wonderful and superbly balanced right out of the box.

 

Emotional diff:

When you're in a TT you know you're in one of the best supercars in the world. Yes, you are in supercar territory. You can tell yourself what a lucky SOB you are everytime. BMW/M3 is dime a dozen. Literally.

A TT will initially feel like a very refined car, almost too refined. Someone said the initial throttle response in the M3 is quicker. It's true. It gives you the feeling that you're going fast. However, once the boost is picked up in the TT, beyond 4000rpm, the car change attitude in an instant. You'll be saying OMG, when is this pull/torque going to end? I said the samething in top gear at 150+ mph.

Next is the handling. The grip for such a heavy and rear engine car is enormous. Takes awhile and some courage to explore the "edge" in the TT. That makes the M3 more playful to some because it takes less to step the tail out, which is always fun even in 30mph zones.

Lastly, the TT is a beast that will take you a long time to master. You'll feel more rewarded with the TT.

Logical diff:

The M3 is easy to obtain and SELL. That's why it's dime a dozen. It's a mid-market car. Lot more people can afford it. TT is a supercar where image and dominant performance figures are everything. TT is a toy for the wealthy, who can always get a newer faster toy.

In terms of reliability, some TT's have their share of RMS leaks and transmission issues. But that's about it. I've had a lot more issues (electronics and brakes) with the Bimmer than with the Porsche. Oh, the Porsche brakes last forever on the track and on the streets.

I agree with others in that if you can, keep both the M3 and TT.

Oh, what Hamman7 said is true. The GT3 is the better Porsche to have, especially if you're keeping your M3
The TT is really a compromised Porsche.