Thats so funny, but i havent desire to continue.........

 

Mark, who knows, my bro live in LA California and if i come in USA to see him and my friends there, then Chicago is not so far away You know winols and use it ? Why ? There isnt any USA analog for this ?
Btw IC size is not problem with 6" cores, problem is their location on Porsches and efficiensy without ducting

Your car is fast, i cant say other, but you are born in EU, so i think you know what your car will done on normal airport track like these we use for our "dragracing", there is notning to compare with profesional dragstrip and times there
Anyway i will buy Vbox next week, i am really interested what it will show for comparation, because here our cars tuned get results like stock cars meassured in USA, so we are again in last place....

 

We use winols.
Unfortunately the ics have to stay where they stay.

 

[/quote]
Ok, fine, but intercooler with that location like in Porsche, without ducting is not efficient at all [/quote]

So your car would do better with the duct like 8's and 60-130 in 3's.
What do they smoke in Bulgaria?

 

THIS WILL BE A LONG POST!!!

OMG! I am without a computer all weekend and all this crap goes down. Where to start... hmmmmmmmm......

First off on the intercooling ducting talk... I do agree it is needed if you are doing LONG distance runs, but for what most of the people do in the USA (including me) it is not needed. I do in FACT have the ducts still in my car with my custom Boost Logic 6" Intercoolers, which do in fact have Bell cores. It took a lot of work to get everything to fit properly and be done right. I think the reason why most of the Proto setups do not utilize it is because of the way most of them do their Diverters/BOV's. They are on top of the intercooler so putting a duct their would be almost impossible. I do know my homey Nick (unvmym3) has his BOV's setup like mine which is on the Y-Pipe going into the TB where we have 2x TiAL 50mm BOV's. I am not sure if he has his ducting or not; but I am sure if he wanted to he could have his back, just takes time to fab everything to work. But back to my thinking, since we do not have HUGE freeways to do 200mph pulls daily or runways for racing (other than like the Mile races) it is not REALLY needed.

Next the MAF problem. These cars come with MAF's that peg out VERY easily and require "dumb tuning" after the MAF is pegged. Basically just throwing fuel based on the trends of how it was doing until the MAF pegged. Then changing it if the turbos become more powerful up top like seen with the Billet Wheel turbos. There are solutions out there such as the Hitachi and Ford MAF that allow you to trick the DME so you can read more airflow. But the problem is even at some point those will peg out also. I am not sure if Proto has had a car do it yet, but I am almost 99% sure EVOMS learned their limit with Joetwint's car, which is why Sloss's (S-351) car runs on a MAFless tune. When I had Boost Logic build the car I decided I did not want to run without a MAF because at the time Tony @ EPL (my tuner at the time) had not finalized a new MAF for high HP applications yet. I was not going to leave him because he had done amazing work in the past for me. He said he could get the car running without the MAF and make good power; but the car to be FINE tuned would have to come out to EPL's shop in CT to get rid of all the CEL's, ABS/PSM, etc.. He was able to nail a perfect A/F (that Justin Nenni (JustinN on 6speed) and myself wanted which was in the mid 11s and a LOW amount of timing (less than 21*)) on the second file he sent me. The fine tuning just as I said up there would require him to have access to the car to take the time and nail down every code to get it to be right. I drove the car 1500-2000 miles after the car made 843rwhp / 740-790rwtq at 26psi sustained and 27.x peaks. Then it came time for the idea to build the motor with Boost Logic and I wanted to shoot for 1100-1200rwhp with a 3.6ltr which would destroy the current stock displacement record. I knew if I wanted to get the car fined tuned with Tony it was going to have to go to CT once before the motor and then again after the motor. I am located here in Houston, and being young Porsche owners (yeah, I'm one of the younger forum members at the age of 26 in less than a month), I figured it was going to cost an arm and a leg to have the car shipped back and fourth multiple times. I hate long drives so I would not be driving the car across the US LOL! The guy that put me in contact with Boost Logic, is Justin Nenni from Tuning Concepts; just as I said earlier in the post. He by himself, with no help from any outside Porsche tuner, was able to use an HKS fCon computer setup to take complete control of the computer, aside from the Throttle, Variocam (except he could do this if we wanted to), and was able to keep ABS/PSM working and intact. This took a lot of work of course because most people that have done standalones on these cars have ended up going with a Piggy-Back setup or just gone back to the stock DME due to Christmas Tree looking dashes. I had to convince him to put the standalone in my car as he said it was not NEEDED at this point in time when the car was making only mid 800rwhp on a stock motor on MS109. Finally after giving him my reasoning about cost of shipping and my goal I was finally able to convince him to do the setup on my car. Now I did not put Tony out of the dark, because there were still a few things that we could not modify that the stock DME had control of (Rev Limiter, O2's, etc..). The o2 problem was that they would go out of range of what the stock computer wanted because they had NO control of anything. This is common on cars with standalones that still utilize a stock computer also. Now I know someone will come in here and try to say it is a Piggyback, when in fact it is far from it. Not only do we output information to the DME and factor sensors, the car does not take data from the DME and change it and send it out as a stock signal like a Piggyback. Instead the car sends out it's own signals to the sensors, injectors, etc that are different from the stock DME's commands. I may not have explained that completely right; but I am sure JustinN will be here later on when he gets a chance to explain this further. The car at the moment has NO CELs, ABS/PSM still works completely, and even passes emissions 100% legal in Houston, Texas, which has an emissions testing similar to California. The car with the standalone did make a little more power than it did before on the stock DME tune, which was 868rwhp and 729rwtq. Justin killed a lot of torque to keep it completely safe. I was not able to do this with Tony because I broke my EVC VI wire on the last pull of the day because it was falling apart. On my current setup I have made more than 843-9XXrwhp (because I have run MORE boost than my car was dynoed on (Max has been 30.2psi PEAK), only because of weather changes and forgetting about the EVC VI, like an idiot).

At the moment I only know of two companies that have attempted a MAFless setup on a stock DME (in the USA) and those would be EPL and EVOMSit. EVOMSit was able to knock out the CEL/ABS/PSM (which happened last week I think) because they had the car in house, and there is nothing wrong with that. I wish I could have afforded to do so with EPL; but oh well.

Regardless to this day, as far as STOCK MOTOR 996TT's ONLY, I have the highest dynoing car, highest reving (7800rpm), fastest 60-130 (AWD and FULL weight (3600+lbs with myself in the car), and fastest 1/4 mile TIME AND MPH. Would I recommend anyone to do this? Honestly probably not because it is not known how long these motors will last. It may last forever or it may last only a few more 1000 miles. The car currently has 5000+ miles on it, MULTIPLE (I made at least 10 passes at TX2K10) 10sec at 145-149.3mph passes, lots of 60-130s, and TONS of street abuse. The car will be receiving a built 3.6ltr soon enough (now it looks like towards October/Novemeber), but I have decided to spend the current amount that I have for the motor + more for a nice outdoor kitchen/patio for my house. This is because that money will actually make me money or at least get that money back when I sell the house. I guess it sucks getting older and realizing that I have other responsibilities. Regardless my goal of 1100-1200rwhp will HOPEFULLY be obtained with the help of Boost Logic, Tuning Concepts, and EPL.

I think I have more so addressed everything and even probably go more than offtopic on this post... I've been without a computer all weekend due to a broken laptop so I needed to write a book! LOL!

 

That's all you have to say? JK good view point

 

My eyes hurt after reading all that LOL JK

bottom line- most high end tuners can or have figured it out... and as in my previous comment.. it is not for everyone... that is why its only on a few one off cars...

But with that said, got me thinking... well Powell did... looks like the maf set ups are not, if any, that far behind HP wise... we have seen 1000+rwhp set ups on both mafs and no mafs... any thoughts? how much more can you get at 1000 rwhp?
mark

 

Good save your self , i know facts hurt and may be hard for you guys across the pond to fathom , but we DO have faster cars we DO run faster ..

 

Another LONG post...

Mark,
In my opinion the MAF is a good thing to have on a midly modified car. As we know it does have its limitations, which can be extended with extensive programming. This is the case for any form of MAF. Though as you start to push really large amounts of power it has and will always be better use a speed density (or load based setup as in the case of the factory Porsche DME). I do not know enough to get technical as to why and I'm sure Justin N, Tony @ EPL, the EVOMS guys, or Proto can come in and explain why. I do know even in the LS1 world, where I originally came from, that the tuning is a LOT different when writing a MAF table compared to a table for a Speed Density setup. Fuel tables at least in that world are based on air flow the MAF sees and you base your fuel tables around grams per second, or whatever it is. When you take a MAF off of a LS1, you switch over to a VE Table which you start getting your fuel calculations based on what the MAP sensor is reading. It is a little bit more complicated even on the LS1 than the conventional MAF setup. Almost all of the FI cars in the LS1 world that have a tuner that knows how to actually tune, run in a Speed Density setup. Hell even a lot of the high HP N/A cars do too. We run a speed density setup in my brothers 55Xrwhp (on motor) Vette. It does have a direct port pilled for 300 which powers it to close to 900rwhp, but when you have a setup like that it is a lot different then a setup where you need to monitor a MAP sensor or MAF because the nitrous is being injected directly into the runners in the heads.

I have more to add to this that has nothing to do with MAFs, but tuning with a stock computer in general. I am waiting to talk to Justin or Tony before posting because I want to make sure I have the things they have explained to me right.

 

Bobby has a 993 at 1000rwhp running speed density... he says that he gained roughly 100hp over the conventional set up...
I agree its a better set up... I had it on my 800 hp Evo... but its not for everyone... actually its probably for an elite group of guys... in our case that is...

 

The Hitachi MAF seems to be the most sorted for usability in daily driving. It seems to me on more cars for longer years and has probably had the most R&D and feedback? I'll tell you from experience (before getting my car fully sorted and perfect) that nothing sucks more than a car that bucks and jolts in normal driving.

 

With MAF, without MAF..makes no difference to me. The US still holds all of the Porsche acceleration records known to man: 0-300 km/h, 100-200km/h, 60-130 mph, 0-60 mph, 1/4 mile, standing mile.

Apparently we're doing something right (much to the chagrin of the euro guys)

 

Todd at proto had his maf set up many moons before any tuner that Im aware of( I think 2003)... but it did require a complete overhaul of the Y pipe and intake... its not a direct replacement like the Hitachi...
we now sell these kits on our bigger set ups... it works all the way up to 1200 hp... one maf for a big job... if installed properly without boost or vacuum leaks it works well..... I have it... no complaints...

 

You have a 997 now Markski? Me jealous.