K24 vs 24/18s - can you tell a clear difference?
#47
05-15-2010 | 11:41 AM
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,214
From: Colorado
Rep Power: 396
I'm a bit confused...
There are some 6speeders that have dynoed 500+ whp with regular k24.....
At this point I don't see the difference between k24 and 18gs. Maybe the point is that k24s at 500 whp are working hard, and with standard fuel system you can't go higher than mid 500.
So if you don't upgrade fuel system and intake you will not see differencies between k24 and 18g..
Am I wrong? (I hope so...I don't want a k24 car to keep up with mine when I will do 18gs....eheh..)
There are some 6speeders that have dynoed 500+ whp with regular k24.....
At this point I don't see the difference between k24 and 18gs. Maybe the point is that k24s at 500 whp are working hard, and with standard fuel system you can't go higher than mid 500.
So if you don't upgrade fuel system and intake you will not see differencies between k24 and 18g..
Am I wrong? (I hope so...I don't want a k24 car to keep up with mine when I will do 18gs....eheh..)
remember, that is on a Dyno Dynamics. The heart breaker. A Dynojet would be closer to 600. 510 awhp is a lot on a dyno dynamics
#48
05-15-2010 | 11:53 AM
I'm a bit confused...
There are some 6speeders that have dynoed 500+ whp with regular k24.....
At this point I don't see the difference between k24 and 18gs. Maybe the point is that k24s at 500 whp are working hard, and with standard fuel system you can't go higher than mid 500.
So if you don't upgrade fuel system and intake you will not see differencies between k24 and 18g..
Am I wrong? (I hope so...I don't want a k24 car to keep up with mine when I will do 18gs....eheh..)
There are some 6speeders that have dynoed 500+ whp with regular k24.....
At this point I don't see the difference between k24 and 18gs. Maybe the point is that k24s at 500 whp are working hard, and with standard fuel system you can't go higher than mid 500.
So if you don't upgrade fuel system and intake you will not see differencies between k24 and 18g..
Am I wrong? (I hope so...I don't want a k24 car to keep up with mine when I will do 18gs....eheh..)
there is no comparison between a k24 and a k24/18g... period...
and if you add injectors and tune for it its even more...
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
#50
05-15-2010 | 12:13 PM
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,510
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 788
The difference isn't that big between the two. I dynoed 565 on a local dyno-dynamics with my K24/18G setup, and then made 600 on a dynojet the next day. Same fuel, same boost.
#51
05-15-2010 | 12:27 PM
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,214
From: Colorado
Rep Power: 396
your number looks more like the diff between a dynojet and a mustang. But it may have been due to correction factor changes maybe, who knows.
I also found this and the number seems to support the numbers my friend got percentage wise.
Hi Everyone,
I'm a curious person (just like the most of you), but I found it increasingly difficult to understand who's products makes how much power. But from all the posts and dyno plots, it seems that everyone had slightly different scenarios (so no apples-to-apples comparison). So I'd figure I'd try and help out our community by ponying up the $$$ and getting some real-world answers.
So what was the plan for the today? Let's take the exact same car and go to two different dynos to see the differences (keeping as many variables the same).
Who are the gineau pigs? ATP (Fremont, CA) using their in-ground Dynojet and Vishnu Performance Systems (Pleasanton, CA) using their DynoDynamics. They are approximately 20 miles from each other (25 minutes). And finally my car ... 2002 WRX (silver - its the fastest color) with 25,910 miles on it ... the mods are a full Vishnu Stage 2.
What was the test setup? Of course with my luck, the fan ATP used to cool the TMIC broke. Oh well, to be consistent NO fan was used to cool the TMIC at Vishnu's either. I've also seen some posts about the fans used to cool the radiators ... let me tell you that the one at Vishnu's was massively stronger that the one at ATP (so we pulled it a lot farther away that the one used at ATP). I don't think this makes too much of a difference, since the engine coolant temps stayed the same. For those **** people ... ATP was 60deg.F and Vishnu was 61deg.F and I don't think there is more than a 100' of elevation change. I did forget to measure the temperature of the intercoolers (but oh well). The car were driven to their each location, sat around for 20 minutes, driven onto the dyno, sat around for another 10 minutes and then first two runs were pulled and printed. That's all folks ... we don't want to make this more complicated that it needs to be.
The Results:
ATP (Dynojet) - 275.8whp and 232.2 torque
Vishnu (DynoDynamics) - 224.7whp and 192.2 torque
So depending on how you look at it ... Dynojet runs 22.74% higher than a DynoDynamic or DynoDynamic runs 18.53% lower than a Dynojet (with regards to whp). Check out these graphs ... (oops ... I can't figure out how to get multiple attachments with a single post)
Interesting observations ...
Setup on the Dynojet vs. DynoDynamics ... all I got to say is that it was a lot harder getting my car on the Dynojet ... first thing was that we didn't get the tracks pulled apart far enough until we rolled the car on to it (so we had to back off the car, stretch the dyno and put the car back on). The second thing, was that it was tough getting the car balanced on top of both rollers ... so about 20 minutes elapsed from getting into the garage to the first pull. The DynoDynamics was really simple ... drive car onto ramp and fall into the first set of rollers (in case you didn't know they have 8 rollers - two for each wheel) and use a simple control to slide the rear rollers into place, strap it down and you're ready to go (5-6 minutes tops). The other thing I noticed was that you had to bring the car to a complete stop on the Dynojet ... the DynoDynamics could run back-to-back pulls really quickly - you don't have to bring the car back to 1st gear.
The important thing I've learned is that when you want to know the differences between modifications, you need to have testing tools that repeatable (ie. stick to the same dyno and record the environments - so you have the same correction factors in play).
Conclusion
So what have I accomplished with all this ... nothing, my car still make the same power it did going to both dynos. So, I wanted to help put some of those concern people at ease ... I'm sure you're making the power you made (since you have dyno plots), just know there is a significant difference between dynos. All I'd like to see are vendors advertising the % differences they have measured (and world peace).
/getting off soap box/
Have a great and safe Christmas and New Years ...
Steve
I'm a curious person (just like the most of you), but I found it increasingly difficult to understand who's products makes how much power. But from all the posts and dyno plots, it seems that everyone had slightly different scenarios (so no apples-to-apples comparison). So I'd figure I'd try and help out our community by ponying up the $$$ and getting some real-world answers.
So what was the plan for the today? Let's take the exact same car and go to two different dynos to see the differences (keeping as many variables the same).
Who are the gineau pigs? ATP (Fremont, CA) using their in-ground Dynojet and Vishnu Performance Systems (Pleasanton, CA) using their DynoDynamics. They are approximately 20 miles from each other (25 minutes). And finally my car ... 2002 WRX (silver - its the fastest color) with 25,910 miles on it ... the mods are a full Vishnu Stage 2.
What was the test setup? Of course with my luck, the fan ATP used to cool the TMIC broke. Oh well, to be consistent NO fan was used to cool the TMIC at Vishnu's either. I've also seen some posts about the fans used to cool the radiators ... let me tell you that the one at Vishnu's was massively stronger that the one at ATP (so we pulled it a lot farther away that the one used at ATP). I don't think this makes too much of a difference, since the engine coolant temps stayed the same. For those **** people ... ATP was 60deg.F and Vishnu was 61deg.F and I don't think there is more than a 100' of elevation change. I did forget to measure the temperature of the intercoolers (but oh well). The car were driven to their each location, sat around for 20 minutes, driven onto the dyno, sat around for another 10 minutes and then first two runs were pulled and printed. That's all folks ... we don't want to make this more complicated that it needs to be.
The Results:
ATP (Dynojet) - 275.8whp and 232.2 torque
Vishnu (DynoDynamics) - 224.7whp and 192.2 torque
So depending on how you look at it ... Dynojet runs 22.74% higher than a DynoDynamic or DynoDynamic runs 18.53% lower than a Dynojet (with regards to whp). Check out these graphs ... (oops ... I can't figure out how to get multiple attachments with a single post)
Interesting observations ...
Setup on the Dynojet vs. DynoDynamics ... all I got to say is that it was a lot harder getting my car on the Dynojet ... first thing was that we didn't get the tracks pulled apart far enough until we rolled the car on to it (so we had to back off the car, stretch the dyno and put the car back on). The second thing, was that it was tough getting the car balanced on top of both rollers ... so about 20 minutes elapsed from getting into the garage to the first pull. The DynoDynamics was really simple ... drive car onto ramp and fall into the first set of rollers (in case you didn't know they have 8 rollers - two for each wheel) and use a simple control to slide the rear rollers into place, strap it down and you're ready to go (5-6 minutes tops). The other thing I noticed was that you had to bring the car to a complete stop on the Dynojet ... the DynoDynamics could run back-to-back pulls really quickly - you don't have to bring the car back to 1st gear.
The important thing I've learned is that when you want to know the differences between modifications, you need to have testing tools that repeatable (ie. stick to the same dyno and record the environments - so you have the same correction factors in play).
Conclusion
So what have I accomplished with all this ... nothing, my car still make the same power it did going to both dynos. So, I wanted to help put some of those concern people at ease ... I'm sure you're making the power you made (since you have dyno plots), just know there is a significant difference between dynos. All I'd like to see are vendors advertising the % differences they have measured (and world peace).
/getting off soap box/
Have a great and safe Christmas and New Years ...
Steve
#52
05-15-2010 | 01:15 PM
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,510
From: Virginia, USA
Rep Power: 788
I think it pretty much comes down to the settings of the dyno. They vary between shops.
Yet another reason why we shouldn't use them exclusively to gauge the actual power of our cars.
Yet another reason why we shouldn't use them exclusively to gauge the actual power of our cars.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 05-15-2010 at 02:14 PM.
#53
05-15-2010 | 02:09 PM
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,214
From: Colorado
Rep Power: 396
only good for checking upgrades from baseline and for looking at curve shape. To many factors.
#54
05-15-2010 | 03:26 PM
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 547
From: Tampa Bay, fl
Rep Power: 40
May be A28 is your answer. I do not know if it would beat 18g in power. But I do not have issue with turbo lag. It is equal or even better than stock k16.
Bad part: it costs more.
Bad part: it costs more.
#56
05-15-2010 | 04:02 PM
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,021
From: Italy
Rep Power: 84
if the hot side is the same why would the 18g's spool slower?
Yes your wrong lol
there is no comparison between a k24 and a k24/18g... period...
and if you add injectors and tune for it its even more..
there is no comparison between a k24 and a k24/18g... period...
and if you add injectors and tune for it its even more..
I'm still wondering how is it possible for a k24 to dyno 500+hp tho..
#58
05-15-2010 | 04:13 PM
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,214
From: Colorado
Rep Power: 396
I did not realize that the 18g wheel was that much heavier that it would hamper spool up but it makes sense.
Where do GT30's and GT35's sit in the A28, K16,K24 size listing?
#59
05-15-2010 | 04:21 PM
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 329
From: FL/NYC
Rep Power: 30
Turbo Lag
So with regards to lag, say you are always above 3000rpm, it shouldn't really be a factor, correct? When I look at dyno charts of various K16 and K24 hybrids, it looks like the torque comes on in a range that only differs by a few hundred rpm under 3000rpm. My K24s (to me) don't really feel "laggy." The only time I really feel lag and a non-linear progression of power is when I'm accelerating from a stand still or RPMs drop to less than 2,000 and I'm accelerating back up through the gears.
One thing that get's left out of these discussions is gearing and what happens to the Car and the Turbos when you are on a Road Course... I am never out of the boost at any Road Course I run at.. if you are a competent Race Car/Track day driver, you should know what gear you should be in at all times and in every corner you go through... As long as you have your Turbos on boost, then the argument over which one gets the jump is irrelevant..
#60
05-15-2010 | 04:34 PM
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,021
From: Italy
Rep Power: 84
If you lift off the throttle at 4000rpm and then punch it again, you will experience lag as the time that the turbo needs to build boost again after you lifted the throttle.
I think better wg's and intake reduce this "lag".
It would be nice to find a way to keep the turbo on boost while lifting off....like the old Formula 1 turbo cars had (if I remember correctly).
I think better wg's and intake reduce this "lag".
It would be nice to find a way to keep the turbo on boost while lifting off....like the old Formula 1 turbo cars had (if I remember correctly).