Thanks for the straight forward answer.

 

Boy, here is a subject that I know absolutely nothing about - so it is a perfect place for me to jump in

Anyone / everyone - please correct me if I am wrong, but (in simplistic terms) doesn't the "program" involve gathering input data from multiple sources and then providing directions / output data based on each specific input set? So, then it would seem that if ten (or even two) "tuners" reprogrammed the system with the goal to "improve" it - the odds of them coming up with the exact same output set per input set would be slim? Someone must have a better output set (based on perceptions and "needs" obviously)?

And I guess that is the original question, and perhaps difficult unless someone obtained all the different programs and compared them each at any / all input to output sets and then published some sort of massive report.

And, by the way PorschePHD - even though I don't have a TT - I appreciated all the work you did on the exhaust systems report, it was interesting.

 

Periokid -

I imagine that several people on the list probably do know the difference (not me). However, I doubt that they would be willing to share those differences in any significant detail as it would be detrimental to their perceived competitive advantage. That said, I would personally ask each vendor the following:

1. What are the advantages of your stage 1 program?
2. How does your program differ from xyz program?
3. Why should I buy your program rather than xyz?
4. Why does your program cost more (or less) than xyz (abc)?

Of course, each vendor's answer will be somewhat biased and probably somewhat vague. But, it is probably the best that you can do.

Equally important, if at all possible, I would visit several of the vendors (assuming you live in a relatively large metro area) and check out the facility, talk to the personnel, and drive one of their stage 1 cars.

P.S. I would not rely solely on dyno charts and AFRs alone as they do not tell the full story under all relevant driving conditions.

P.S.S. Sorry for my contribution to the explosiveness of the thread. I'm usually pretty careful not to thread jack... but this time I messed up.

Cheers,

 

racer63,

thanks again for the feedback. I think the explosiveness of this topic just shows that this is a very heated topic. Apparently many people seem to be interested in the answers these questions.

The problem is....how can we get answers?

 

Periokid,

You could get an answer to some questions if someone (or different people) with each of the ecu's in question performed dyno run with afr's being recorded.

 

But wouldn't that only show the results from the map for the conditions in the dyno room that day? Not really a comprehensive comairison? I'm not sure how one would get a comprehensive picture of the various conditions we drive in. We need that tech geek from the "Fast & the Furious" to do a mutli-varible 3D map analysis of all the programming out there . Good Luch with that!

 

Zippy,

What you are refering to is alot of sales hype that has been introduced by the tuners. Yes, there will be a marginal difference. However, if I was to show you a graph or chart of how the afr's affect the power and performance you would see what I mean. I can't remember which Graham Bell book shows this, but it is in one of them. Remember, the 996tt ECU adapts to a point to conditions and it has a very wide latitude. How else do you think I can run N2O without changing timing?

 

I would think it to be possible to run the small amount of N2O you are using as long as you are tuning your AFR's to ensure you don't run lean. You only have a 50HP shot, right? As well, with appropriate AFR's, your extensive work on ubgrading the charge cooling (modded intercooler, CO2 spray, not to mention the huge intercooling effect of the NO2) I would be surprised if the intuitiveness of the stock ECU is retarding the timing at all. It would be interesting to datalog a dyno pull on your car with the NO2 (and extra fuel) and without and chart the timing to determine exactly what is happening with the timing.

 

Zippy,

I am now running a two stage N2O system. The first stage is 75 shot progressively coming on starting at 4500 rpm's. The second stage is a 50 shot progressively coming on starting at 5300 rpm's. Second stage scheduled for test next week.

 

Oooohhh.... that's getting up there then! It would still be very interesting to see a chart of the timing with it on and off.

 

CJV -

Are you talking about the reliability issue? That seems like a sensible approach to answering that question.

Also, the area under the curve should tell you a lot about acceleration potential.

Question: Can the dyno runs help you to evaluate drivability at all? I know that drivability is somewhat subjective. But, perhaps the dyno can still help somewhat in this area?

 

racer63,

If they dyno shows hp, torque and afr's @ 10 rpm increaments, it will tell you alot about driveability. I would also like to know what boost is being used as simply raising the boost is not a good solution by itself.

 

The ONLY WAY to compare is to get all these cars together and run them against each other. Stage x versus Unichip versus Upsolute, etc...

That is the definative answer! Screw your dang dyno's and blah, blah, blah. The real world experience is the only thing that matters.

just my very humble opinion of course!

 

racer63,

I have never seen a 996tt that was not streetable period. By streetable I am refering to being able to drive it around town at slow speeds and in stop and go traffic with ease. The vario cam along with other features make for a very docile motor in the lower and mid rpm ranges. What I have seen on motors with boost above 1.0 bar is blown induction air hoses, check engine lights, and lower fuel economy. If this is being non streetable....then I guess they are not streetable.

What is the universal definition of streetable?

 

buddy,

There are many variables aside from hp and torque that definitely impact judging a car. For instance: weight, gearing, wheels, tires, suspension and and by WHO sets it up. They all make for a balanced package. The dyno is very useful for judging hp and torque which admitably is only one measurement.