What are your thoughts on nitrous?
#32
10-31-2010, 06:53 PM
While there certainly are differences in principles of implementation and end-results, the concept of running nitrous really isn't inherently different than using water/methanol injection, or running race gas. You'll make more power while they last, and less after you've used them up.
Of course, you could always run race gas... but you could also always run nitrous, or w/m, etc. Just different means to the same end: increasing engine output over the levels that same engine will produce when using pump fuel.
Of course, you could always run race gas... but you could also always run nitrous, or w/m, etc. Just different means to the same end: increasing engine output over the levels that same engine will produce when using pump fuel.
Nitrous is a drying agent. It dries the oil off your liners. Good reason for larger oil squirters. Of course everyone knows how the boxter liners are oiled and why they are oiled.
Could go on but those are two very important reasons for building it right if you are dabbling with more than small shots.
Last edited by cjv; 10-31-2010 at 07:02 PM.
#33
10-31-2010, 06:56 PM
Nitrous produces a lot of heat. Good reason for using proper upper rings along with using extra tolerances.
Nitrous is a drying agent. It dries the oil off your liners. Good reason for larger oil squirters.
Could go on but those are two very important reasons for building it right if you are dabbling with more than small shots.
Nitrous is a drying agent. It dries the oil off your liners. Good reason for larger oil squirters.
Could go on but those are two very important reasons for building it right if you are dabbling with more than small shots.
Yeah it makes power...but your engine ain't happy about it...
#34
10-31-2010, 07:04 PM
HP is HP. I've been using it for many many years. People are scared because of all the horror stories but lets face it there are a lot of Horror setups and cowboys that lead to the stories.
Even distribution is the key.
Even distribution is the key.
#35
10-31-2010, 07:09 PM
Everything comes with a price. Our current build is a 4.4L with GT35R's, six 48 mm TB's, and a whole bunch more. Yes, it also has six programmable nitrous injectors capable of providing up to 300 additional hp.I guess if someone get beat they can blame the nitrous.
#36
10-31-2010, 11:31 PM
Nitrous produces a lot of heat. Coincidently right above the upper piston ring, liner and piston. Can anyone tell me where the second wave of combustion usually starts? Yes, just above this ring between the liner and piston. In layman's terms ........ this is where the second wall of combustion starts and travels to a head on collision with the first wall of combustion that initiated at the spark plug. When the walls of fire meet it is commonly referred to a detonation. OOPS. Good reason for using proper upper rings along with using extra tolerances.
Nitrous is a drying agent. It dries the oil off your liners. Good reason for larger oil squirters. Of course everyone knows how the boxter liners are oiled and why they are oiled.
Could go on but those are two very important reasons for building it right if you are dabbling with more than small shots.
Nitrous is a drying agent. It dries the oil off your liners. Good reason for larger oil squirters. Of course everyone knows how the boxter liners are oiled and why they are oiled.
Could go on but those are two very important reasons for building it right if you are dabbling with more than small shots.
You make claims based on what information? First lets talk about the issues you bring up.
1. Upper Cylinder Temps and Detonation
The effects of Nitrous Oxide are the same as increasing boost levels inside a car. You increase the oxgen avalible inside the combustion chamber and get a more powerful explosion as a result. However, EGT temps are not really effected by its use unless you have improper mixture like a lean/rich running motor but again thats pretty much on par with running more boost.
2. Nitrous Oxide as a Drying Agent
Seriously? I want to hear more on this theory...
Your fuel has far far more cleaning/drying abilities then Nitrous Oxide will ever have or even come close too. I have heard of people washing down the cylinder walls when spraying nitrous but it had nothing to do with Nitrous Oxide itself. The problem was that they simply had way to much fuel when spraying and as a result like running a really rich motor washed the cylinder walls down as a side effect of to much fuel.
While there certainly are differences in principles of implementation and end-results, the concept of running nitrous really isn't inherently different than using water/methanol injection, or running race gas. You'll make more power while they last, and less after you've used them up.
Of course, you could always run race gas... but you could also always run nitrous, or w/m, etc. Just different means to the same end: increasing engine output over the levels that same engine will produce when using pump fuel.
Of course, you could always run race gas... but you could also always run nitrous, or w/m, etc. Just different means to the same end: increasing engine output over the levels that same engine will produce when using pump fuel.
Last edited by Fishey; 10-31-2010 at 11:35 PM.
#37
11-01-2010, 12:50 AM
This thread is pretty . I laugh at anyone who thinks a blower or turbo is "acceptable" means for a power increase, but then implies that nitrous is somehow the cheap way, or the easy route, or cheating. Now that is some ignorant comedy.
Full disclosure - I have never had nitrous on any of my cars.
. I laugh at anyone who thinks a blower or turbo is "acceptable" means for a power increase, but then implies that nitrous is somehow the cheap way, or the easy route, or cheating. Now that is some ignorant comedy.Full disclosure - I have never had nitrous on any of my cars.
#38
11-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Here is a prime reason I never frequent this board.
You make claims based on what information? First lets talk about the issues you bring up.
1. Upper Cylinder Temps and Detonation
The effects of Nitrous Oxide are the same as increasing boost levels inside a car. You increase the oxgen avalible inside the combustion chamber and get a more powerful explosion as a result. However, EGT temps are not really effected by its use unless you have improper mixture like a lean/rich running motor but again thats pretty much on par with running more boost.
2. Nitrous Oxide as a Drying Agent
Seriously? I want to hear more on this theory...
You make claims based on what information? First lets talk about the issues you bring up.
1. Upper Cylinder Temps and Detonation
The effects of Nitrous Oxide are the same as increasing boost levels inside a car. You increase the oxgen avalible inside the combustion chamber and get a more powerful explosion as a result. However, EGT temps are not really effected by its use unless you have improper mixture like a lean/rich running motor but again thats pretty much on par with running more boost.
2. Nitrous Oxide as a Drying Agent
Seriously? I want to hear more on this theory...
If you are trying to compare a turbocharged setup with a nitrous setup or combination setup and you are trying to convince us they are the same, just stop there. You are dead wrong.
A little backup up rather than your opinion would go a long way.As for your contention that nitrous oxide is not a dry agent ..... SS Burke disagrees in his Microdetermination of Nitrous Oxide in Gaseous Mixtures.
Regarding what it does. Here are the identifying charasteristics that one of the larger car manufacturers use for identifying nitrous usage.
Aftermarket Power-Up Kit (nitous) Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.
• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.
Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.
• Top of piston melted / missing.
Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.
• Wrist Pin Wear.
• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.
Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.
• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.
Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.
• Bearing surface distressed.
I find it amazing most of the items in bold are not associated with our turbo motors. They are associated with the heat you say doesn't exist.
I would be happy to continue under the condition you start backing up your opinion with some valid studies.
I still find it strange that you believe the ring clearances and liner finishes should be the same for a turbo motor as it is for a nitrous motor or a turbo motor utilizing nitrous. Naah .......... it couldn't have anything to do with heat or drying.
Last edited by cjv; 11-02-2010 at 02:38 AM.
#39
11-01-2010, 04:47 PM
This thread is pretty . I laugh at anyone who thinks a blower or turbo is "acceptable" means for a power increase, but then implies that nitrous is somehow the cheap way, or the easy route, or cheating. Now that is some ignorant comedy.
Full disclosure - I have never had nitrous on any of my cars.
. I laugh at anyone who thinks a blower or turbo is "acceptable" means for a power increase, but then implies that nitrous is somehow the cheap way, or the easy route, or cheating. Now that is some ignorant comedy.Full disclosure - I have never had nitrous on any of my cars.
how about this one..."is that a supercharger I hear under the hood?"
"No, that is my gear drive, makes the same sound"
it's only cheating when you lie about what you got.....and you can lie about FI as easily as you can about NOS. If NOS by itself is cheating, then so is having a race file and running race fuel or running meth/water injection, or even E85.
#41
11-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Fishey,
If you are trying to compare a turbocharged setup with a nitrous setup or combination setup and you are trying to convince us they are the same, just stop there. You are dead wrong. A little backup up rather than your opinion would go a long way.
As for your contention that nitrous oxide is not a dry agent ..... SS Burke disagrees in his Microdetermination of Nitrous Oxide in Gaseous Mixtures.
Regarding what it does. Here are the identifying charasteristics that one of the larger car manufacturers use for identifying nitrous usage.
Aftermarket Power-Up Kit (nitous) Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.
• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.
Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.
• Top of piston melted / missing.
Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.
• Wrist Pin Wear.
• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.
Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.
• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.
Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.
• Bearing surface distressed.
I find it amazing most of the items in bold are not associated with our turbo motors. They are associated with the heat you say doesn't exist.
I would be happy to continue under the condition you start backing up your opinion with some valid studies.
I still find it strange that you believe the ring clearances and liner finishes should be the same for a turbo motor as it is for a nitrous motor or a turbo motor utilizing nitrous. Naah .......... it couldn't have anything to do with heat or drying.
If you are trying to compare a turbocharged setup with a nitrous setup or combination setup and you are trying to convince us they are the same, just stop there. You are dead wrong.
A little backup up rather than your opinion would go a long way.As for your contention that nitrous oxide is not a dry agent ..... SS Burke disagrees in his Microdetermination of Nitrous Oxide in Gaseous Mixtures.
Regarding what it does. Here are the identifying charasteristics that one of the larger car manufacturers use for identifying nitrous usage.
Aftermarket Power-Up Kit (nitous) Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.
Originally Posted by Fishey
Upper ringland not thick enough usually a result of using an N/A style piston in a boosted/sprayed motor. The reason the ringlands are closer to the surface in a high peformance N/A engine is it allows for better upper cylinder sealing. However, we do not do this in a Turbocharged/Sprayed motor for obvious reasons. As noted you will find that on boosted or sprayed motors your upper ringland has much more meat before the top of the piston making it ideal for boosted and sprayed applications. You can also get significant damage as the result of detonation
Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.
• Top of piston melted / missing.
Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Originally Posted by Fishey
Any engine running way to rich will wash down cylinders simple as that. However, if its a clean polish you can get it from piston slap from excessive clearance in the cylinderwall to piston.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.
• Wrist Pin Wear.
• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.
Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.
• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.
Originally Posted by Fishey
All the above are very common in aftermaket boosted applications as well as nitrous applications. There are a few reasons but most are associated with the increased blow by such as the discoloration and carbon coking on underside of piston. This can be the result of having poor crankcase venting that is the result of engine not being equiped to deal with the additional blowby. You will see this commonly on cars that simply put breathers on the crankcase instead of a vac source. Also, on the other side of the spectrum a few like scoring in the upper piston boss/wrist pin wear are very common when you put to much vac on a motor. How can this happen? Plum your factory breather into the intake of a more powerful turbo setup or running dedicated Vac motor. I have seen this commonly happen on higher HP Dodge Neon SRT-4's for example.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.
• Bearing surface distressed.
I find it amazing most of the items in bold are not associated with our turbo motors. They are associated with the heat you say doesn't exist.
I would be happy to continue under the condition you start backing up your opinion with some valid studies.
I still find it strange that you believe the ring clearances and liner finishes should be the same for a turbo motor as it is for a nitrous motor or a turbo motor utilizing nitrous. Naah .......... it couldn't have anything to do with heat or drying.
Also, nitrous is simply a way of adding oxygen into the cylinder same as adding more boost to a motor. If you add more boost/oxygen your going to increase stresses and heat in the motor regardless of Turbo or Nitrous or both. The main difference between the two is that nitrous reduces significantly intake temps in a motor a turbo not so much.
-Your Pal
Fishey
Last edited by Fishey; 11-02-2010 at 09:10 AM.
#42
11-02-2010, 02:35 PM
First, you make a post about everything under the sun but alot of it can be very much attributed to other things other then a Nitrous setup including some of the things you put in bold. So let me explain for you how they can happen without the use of nitrous. (my response in quotes)
Also, nitrous is simply a way of adding oxygen into the cylinder same as adding more boost to a motor. If you add more boost/oxygen your going to increase stresses and heat in the motor regardless of Turbo or Nitrous or both. The main difference between the two is that nitrous reduces significantly intake temps in a motor a turbo not so much.
The reduced temps of the induction charge allows more O2/O1 to occupy the finite space. The nitrous would cool the induction air weather it is ambiant or compressed. Water injection will also cool the induced air. The issue is your ambient temperatures. The higher the ambient temps the more gains, however cool ambient temps in the range of say 65 degrees F will buy you very little in gains.
My arguements with you was your statement that nitrous was not a drying agent or it doesn't dry the oil on the liners any more than a turbo does. I have found it does and a turbo utilizing any significant amount of nitrous needs to be build differently if you want it to live.
Second, the cylinder combustion temperatures are greater with nitrous versus turbocharging. Add the two together slight variation will will act like an oxygen torch and instantaneouly pierce your piston. I have seen detonation marks on turbo pistons ........... but pierce or blow holes?
Last edited by cjv; 11-02-2010 at 02:42 PM.
#43
11-02-2010, 02:38 PM
You've never seen a boosted motor make a piston disappear? I've seen it happen a few times in big turbo cars that had no n2o involved. You can melt a piston even with a turbo setup... I tried to get Justin in here last night to do a write up, but he's been working a lot. So maybe another tuning guru will come in.
#44
11-02-2010, 02:47 PM
You've never seen a boosted motor make a piston disappear? I've seen it happen a few times in big turbo cars that had no n2o involved. You can melt a piston even with a turbo setup... I tried to get Justin in here last night to do a write up, but he's been working a lot. So maybe another tuning guru will come in.
I have never seen a piston develop (oxygen torch type) pierce holes due to the temperatures on the piston dome exceeding the melting point of aluminum.
I have seen pistons destroyed in a turbo motor, just not by the aluminum pierced due to extreme temps beyond the melting point of the material. Piston destroyed by detonation on turbo ..... yes. By temps so hot they melt the aluminum and pierce through ........ no. And when I say no I mean I have not seen it.
Last edited by cjv; 11-02-2010 at 02:50 PM.
#45
11-02-2010, 03:27 PM
HAHA.. You have to love this.. But I have taken down a motor that had no signs of detonation but a hole torch right through behind the first ring. On the back side you could clearly see it. Things happen so fast when when boost/nos/chargers are used. If I am not mistaken are the valves and seats the first items the get torched on nos?