01-996-c4me
the book time is published by Porsche, They time the tech from the moment that the first nut/bolt is turned , till the end when the car is started. This is genereally done on a new car and there are no siezed /frozen bolts etc. All the parts are directly @ hand and no running around is done. The exact time is not the published time but this establishes a base line for the labor/time guide that is distributed by the manufacturer. I have gone head to head with Audi of America concerning labor time guides and such while employed at an Audi dealer as a service rep. They are classically German and very stubborn and genereally will not raise a time unless it can be proven to take longer than specified by several other dealers. I do agree that 25 hrs seems to be a high # for only a clutch. But on the other hand they are in business to make $. I am willing to bet that the tech and the Svc. advisor are not doing that job for fun.... Keep in mind that not only are you paying for the shop time but that you are alos paying for the knowledge and the training that has gone into that respective technician. Trust me Porsche school ain't cheap!!!!! The dealer pays for all training and all cost involved (travel, lodging etc.) So the dealer is attempting to recoup some of that cost as well. All in all keep in mind that these guys need to make a living as well. I will sign off at this point as I could go on for a long justifying either side of the argument. Bottom line find a different shop than the 25 hr guys.

Colin Miller
www.pes-tuning.com

 

It is just sad to see the disparity in service & price between dealers though. I used to go to a dealer in New York until my AC condensor incident. A rock hit the condensor and put a hole in it.

New York dealer quote: $2800 parts & labor
Brandywine Porsche: $0 covered under warranty

btw, the part costs about $450.

Guess who gets ALL of my business now?

 

Skaria,
Did you buy your car @ Brandywine?? if so that is most likely why they did it and did not charge you for it. Porsche and other manufacturer's are very strict about warranty and damage. the fact of the matter is that @ some point porsche may do a waranty Audit on a dealer and they will request the part back and test it. If the part shows a failure due to manufacturing defect then they claim will stand as initially assesed by the dealer. If Porsche finds that the failure is a result of outside influence then they as the manufacturer of the vehicle and the warrantor reserve the right to deny the claim thus resulting in the money coming out of the dealers pocket. Most Manf. will do a full level 3 audit every 3-3.5 yrs and this can equate to 1/4 million $'s being charged back to a dealer potentially. Thus you have essentially explained another portion as to why labor prices/times are so high!!!!!! Sorry for the long winded answers. In severe instances the dealer principles have been known to terminate people for doing this type of thing to often because generally in the long run it costs $$$.

 

Well said Colin someone knows there Porsche's

 

I remember reading in one of the service bulletins the book hours allowed on another job. The job was listed as a 12 hours charged to a customer, but if it was paid for by PCNA under warranty they allowed 9 hours labor. Also all that dealer expense of training and other overhead should be covered by the difference in the hourly rate VS what they pay the tech. They shouldn't charge for more time to pay overhead.
I'll use the dealer for warranty work only.

 

so colin, you're basically saying it's cool that my buddy bills 70 hours @ $95/hour for 40 to 45 hours/week? why not just charge the $150/hr up front instead of bullschiting their way into it by claiming to 50% more time at $95/hr than they did? typical dealership crap IMO.

 

Colin,

I did not buy my car at Brandywine. It is a lease from a lease broker in PA. I was happy that they did do it under warranty, but I certainly did not expect them to. I did however, price out the part and the labor, and it would have been _half_ of what the NY dealer quoted me. I guess my point, which was obviously lost due to the way I wrote the post, is that there is a HUGE disparity among dealers for the same job (i.e. 15K, 30K service, clutch replacement, etc) and to just call up a few dealers before going with one. I mentioned Brandywine Porsche because I like the fact that I do not have to haggle with them for every little detail before I get work done on my car. It just amazes me that when I call different dealers for pricing such as a 30K service, a lot of them do not even know what is actually done!

Thanks.

 

Skaria,

Which NY Dealer?

 

BCS996TT,

Manhattan Motor Cars... their service is not the same since the old Service Manager John Hill left.

 

Ben,
Do you make a profit in your business??? That is all the dealership is attempting to do. They have lots of unseen costs that most people don't comprehend.
When was the last time that you saw an outside garage jump into a very unusual electrical problem on a car? It does not happen often because they will pick and choose there work to what meets their needs (brakes, suspension, LOF, Tune ups) the gravy as the techs like to phrase it. The dealership is left holding the bag on the really hard stuff that requires substantial equipment investment. Buying equipment from a vehicle manufacturer is similar to the governments $650.00 pliers they love to purchase.
So there is cost involved in this, as well as the training previously mentioned. Then figure in the hard equipment (lift's tire mounters, specialized manufacturer specific computer diagnostic equipment).
A good way to look @ "book time" is that this is the wholesale price for labor and the C/P (cust pay) is retail for the same job. There is no good answer of solution to this debate, it basically winds up being that currently flat rate is the lesser of 2 evil's..... Until consumer's start to have an understanding of the level of training and intelligence that todays "mechanic" embodies, the debate will rage on.
If you want a good idea of the level of monetary commitment that it would take from a vehicle owner to have thier car cared for in the manner and attention to detail perscribed by the manufacturer, then ask some one who owns a private airplane (jet) huge$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Then keep in mind that thousands of parts all have to work in harmony to put that smile on your face when you clip that APEX right on the money and lay down 600 hp worth of abuse to the asphalt and leave the guy in the Integra Type "R" behind like he was driving a Flintstone's pedal car. That is why you pay $95-115.00 pr hour to have your Porsche worked on. You are not driving a pedestrian level car so don't expect pedestrian level bills for the car. If thats what you want go buy a VIPER ,and all of the porsche guys will wave as they lap you after outbraking you into the first corner @ Lime rock.

 

Skaria,
I AGREE 100% The disparity from dealer to dealer is horrible, They believe that thier particular market may support the substantially inflated costs. At some point they will be on the outside looking in.

Colin

 

"Do you make a profit in your business??? That is all the dealership is attempting to do. "

i was in the service biz and we did have MANY of those "electrical diagnosis" type situations (ie: data recovery on server hard drives that have failed either mechanically or thru software/virus, etc). we didn't bill for hours we didn't work. further, the ROUTINE change of a 996 clutch is NOT the sort of "exploratory" type service to which you are referring either.

btw, how is it that the non-dealership p-car service operators who also purchase the same equipment and have operating expenses which are similar in scale to their production volume relative to that of the dealer, are able to charge substantially less per/hr as well as not FRAUDULENTLY bill for hours not worked and still make a living?

 

Ben,
Alot of the expenses that I was speaking of (computers etc.) Can not be purschased by any one other than a franchised Porsche dealer and if they have a porsche systems tester or a porsche hammer then they must have stumbled on them or caught them falling off a truck Besides the only reason that we are debating this is because of semantics. If the facility had simply told the customer that the price for xyz operation is going to cost you $645.00 plus tax then hours unworked or worked would not even be in the conversation. The dealership has worded it incorrectly and have also fed into the hipocracy that is the flat rate system. The manufacturer has decided that all representatives should charge $xxxx.xx to do this work and some greedy people see fit to charge $xxxx.xx plus extra for the same thing. Right back to the beginning of the viscous circle that consumes itself.
Generally non-dealership[ facilities use a high end tester available via Snap-On or Mac tool companies and they charge approx 15-16k for the most intricate of there diag tools still far less than what Porsche charges for there equipment.