First Track day, pads needed?
#16
07-13-2011, 09:56 PM
Whether the stock pads are adequate depends a lot on you. These cars are fast and heavy, so they do tax your brakes. Newbies tend to be harder on brakes than more experienced drivers, because they tend to use them more to over-slow their cars. In any case, definitely change to fresh fluid. I use Motul 600, and it works fine for me, and it's a lot less expensive than Castrol SRF.
If you expect to do more DE's, I'd recommend getting Pagid RS-29 (yellow) in front, and RS-14 (black) in the rear. This combination seems to help brake bias.
Good luck!
Jon
If you expect to do more DE's, I'd recommend getting Pagid RS-29 (yellow) in front, and RS-14 (black) in the rear. This combination seems to help brake bias.
Good luck!
Jon
This surprises me a little. I must really suck! I found that with more track experience I went through pads much faster than when I was a newb. Slowing into corners harder and later from higher speeds seemed to result in faster wear on my pads for me
#17
07-14-2011, 05:43 AM
1. They do not realize how much speed they can safely carry into a corner,
2. They fixate on the entry point without looking at the apex, and
3. They don't brake at threshold, so they are on the brakes longer.
All of those tend to build heat in the brakes, even if their speeds aren't as high as they are later with more experience.
Jon
#19
07-15-2011, 08:42 AM
No, I think that means that you were not so bad when you started. Newbies often have the following three issues:
1. They do not realize how much speed they can safely carry into a corner,
2. They fixate on the entry point without looking at the apex, and
3. They don't brake at threshold, so they are on the brakes longer.
All of those tend to build heat in the brakes, even if their speeds aren't as high as they are later with more experience.
Jon
1. They do not realize how much speed they can safely carry into a corner,
2. They fixate on the entry point without looking at the apex, and
3. They don't brake at threshold, so they are on the brakes longer.
All of those tend to build heat in the brakes, even if their speeds aren't as high as they are later with more experience.
Jon
I have decided that I should go with track pads, now just debating between xp10's or the tried and true and hyped rs29's. Does it really matter since it's a consumable? They're both good pads. Why does the pcar community swear by the pagids? Is it because the ALMS/LMS etc use Pagid?
#20
07-15-2011, 09:09 AM
I have heard this also, that the more seat time you get, the less you use your brakes. I think my biggest problem will be judging entry speed as I will not have an instructor with me, so i will have to start slow and smooth and work my way up to the right speeds. But it'll still be fun I have decided that I should go with track pads, now just debating between xp10's or the tried and true and hyped rs29's. Does it really matter since it's a consumable? They're both good pads. Why does the pcar community swear by the pagids? Is it because the ALMS/LMS etc use Pagid?
I have decided that I should go with track pads, now just debating between xp10's or the tried and true and hyped rs29's. Does it really matter since it's a consumable? They're both good pads. Why does the pcar community swear by the pagids? Is it because the ALMS/LMS etc use Pagid?Here's one tip that I use with students to help them judge entry speed: As you approach the corner in the braking zone, and perhaps even before, consciously work your eyes entry-apex-entry-apex... and as you approach turn-in, start adding the exit as well. This helps you see the whole corner and judge your speed better.
Have fun!
Jon
#21
07-15-2011, 10:26 AM
I will say, more seat time does equate to less time on the brakes. Whether or not you are easier on the brakes I question a little. Braking later means braking much harder - much more heat and friction wear.
#22
07-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Top 5 cars at 2011 24H of Nurburgring ran Endless.
Tons of Porsches use Pagid.
Why move to something else, especially when you are new to track you need to know the equipment works. You don't have experience to tell when you are about to lose your brakes, boil fluid, or get close to fading. A very experienced driver senses these issues and can pit and check it. For a newb if the brakes fail you will be taken by surprise.
Save yourself the risk and run proven pads so you can focus on your own driver development, then experiment with unknown brands when you have a lot of experience to tell when to pit, before it's too late.
Tons of Porsches use Pagid.
Why move to something else, especially when you are new to track you need to know the equipment works. You don't have experience to tell when you are about to lose your brakes, boil fluid, or get close to fading. A very experienced driver senses these issues and can pit and check it. For a newb if the brakes fail you will be taken by surprise.
Save yourself the risk and run proven pads so you can focus on your own driver development, then experiment with unknown brands when you have a lot of experience to tell when to pit, before it's too late.
Last edited by MrWhite; 07-15-2011 at 03:36 PM.
#23
07-15-2011, 11:46 AM
Hard braking for shorter time ends up putting less heat into the pads. It's a heat transfer issue. When you brake you generate heat at the surface between the pad and the rotor. Yes, braking harder generates heat at a higher rate, but it is time of contact that soaks heat into the pad, and eventually into the fluid. Once you are off the brake, the pads and rotors start to cool, again from the surface. Think of it like this: we are braking from speed X to speed Y, so we have to dissipate energy equal to 0.5*mass*(X^2 - Y^2). That total energy is the same regardless of how hard you brake. The rate determines how far into the pad the heat will soak.
This, plus the idea of settling the suspension before turn-in, is the reason we teach students to get on the brakes hard at the beginning and then ease off as you approach turn-in.
Jon
Last edited by FAST FWD; 07-15-2011 at 11:50 AM.
#24
07-15-2011, 02:30 PM
Sorry Nikolas, your point seems obviously correct, but it is actually wrong.
Hard braking for shorter time ends up putting less heat into the pads. It's a heat transfer issue. When you brake you generate heat at the surface between the pad and the rotor. Yes, braking harder generates heat at a higher rate, but it is time of contact that soaks heat into the pad, and eventually into the fluid. Once you are off the brake, the pads and rotors start to cool, again from the surface. Think of it like this: we are braking from speed X to speed Y, so we have to dissipate energy equal to 0.5*mass*(X^2 - Y^2). That total energy is the same regardless of how hard you brake. The rate determines how far into the pad the heat will soak.
This, plus the idea of settling the suspension before turn-in, is the reason we teach students to get on the brakes hard at the beginning and then ease off as you approach turn-in.
Jon
Hard braking for shorter time ends up putting less heat into the pads. It's a heat transfer issue. When you brake you generate heat at the surface between the pad and the rotor. Yes, braking harder generates heat at a higher rate, but it is time of contact that soaks heat into the pad, and eventually into the fluid. Once you are off the brake, the pads and rotors start to cool, again from the surface. Think of it like this: we are braking from speed X to speed Y, so we have to dissipate energy equal to 0.5*mass*(X^2 - Y^2). That total energy is the same regardless of how hard you brake. The rate determines how far into the pad the heat will soak.
This, plus the idea of settling the suspension before turn-in, is the reason we teach students to get on the brakes hard at the beginning and then ease off as you approach turn-in.
Jon
#25
07-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Top 5 cars at 2011 24H of Nurburgring ran Endless.
Tons of Porsches use Pagid.
Why move to something else, especially when you are new to track you need to know the equipment works. You don't have experience to tell when you are about to lose your brakes, boil fluid, or get close to fading. A very experienced driver senses these issues and can pit and check it. For a new if the brakes fail you will be taken by surprise.
Save yourself the risk and run proven pads so you can focus on your own driver development, then experiment with unknown brands when you have a lot of experience to tell when to pit, before it's too late.
Tons of Porsches use Pagid.
Why move to something else, especially when you are new to track you need to know the equipment works. You don't have experience to tell when you are about to lose your brakes, boil fluid, or get close to fading. A very experienced driver senses these issues and can pit and check it. For a new if the brakes fail you will be taken by surprise.
Save yourself the risk and run proven pads so you can focus on your own driver development, then experiment with unknown brands when you have a lot of experience to tell when to pit, before it's too late.
#26
07-15-2011, 03:39 PM
I only used Pagids in Cup cars and RSR. For TT (GT2 spec pretty much) I ran/still run Endless ME23 which have been supreme given the added weight of the TT vs a Cup car. I easily get a season of 8 or more hardcore track weekends out of those pads.
#27
07-15-2011, 03:55 PM
To add to Mr White's comments, with which I agree 100%, I get at least ten track days from the Pagids, and I leave them in place between events. I find that they last a long time - long enough that I don't remember exactly when I changed them. They aren't like track tires, which stick but last only a few days.
One thing to note about the Pagids is that they don't stay yellow or black once you really use them on the track. All of that color goes away, and they are sort of a light brown ash color.
Jon
#28
07-15-2011, 04:02 PM
Trail braking is easing off the brakes while turning, so that you go from 100% braking 0% turning in straight line, and gradually to 0% braking 100% turning at the apex. The idea is to move the tires along the friction circle. May I suggest that you leave this for another track day? Too many things to think about will just overload your thoughts.
To add to Mr White's comments, with which I agree 100%, I get at least ten track days from the Pagids, and I leave them in place between events. I find that they last a long time - long enough that I don't remember exactly when I changed them. They aren't like track tires, which stick but last only a few days.
"One thing to note about the Pagids is that they don't stay yellow or black once you really use them on the track. All of that color goes away, and they are sort of a light brown ash color. "
Jon
To add to Mr White's comments, with which I agree 100%, I get at least ten track days from the Pagids, and I leave them in place between events. I find that they last a long time - long enough that I don't remember exactly when I changed them. They aren't like track tires, which stick but last only a few days.
"One thing to note about the Pagids is that they don't stay yellow or black once you really use them on the track. All of that color goes away, and they are sort of a light brown ash color. "
Jon
#29
07-15-2011, 09:20 PM
Sorry Nikolas, your point seems obviously correct, but it is actually wrong.
Hard braking for shorter time ends up putting less heat into the pads. It's a heat transfer issue. When you brake you generate heat at the surface between the pad and the rotor. Yes, braking harder generates heat at a higher rate, but it is time of contact that soaks heat into the pad, and eventually into the fluid. Once you are off the brake, the pads and rotors start to cool, again from the surface. Think of it like this: we are braking from speed X to speed Y, so we have to dissipate energy equal to 0.5*mass*(X^2 - Y^2). That total energy is the same regardless of how hard you brake. The rate determines how far into the pad the heat will soak.
This, plus the idea of settling the suspension before turn-in, is the reason we teach students to get on the brakes hard at the beginning and then ease off as you approach turn-in.
Jon
Hard braking for shorter time ends up putting less heat into the pads. It's a heat transfer issue. When you brake you generate heat at the surface between the pad and the rotor. Yes, braking harder generates heat at a higher rate, but it is time of contact that soaks heat into the pad, and eventually into the fluid. Once you are off the brake, the pads and rotors start to cool, again from the surface. Think of it like this: we are braking from speed X to speed Y, so we have to dissipate energy equal to 0.5*mass*(X^2 - Y^2). That total energy is the same regardless of how hard you brake. The rate determines how far into the pad the heat will soak.
This, plus the idea of settling the suspension before turn-in, is the reason we teach students to get on the brakes hard at the beginning and then ease off as you approach turn-in.
Jon
Again, I probably just suck. I can live with that as I still have a blast!
#30
07-16-2011, 08:18 AM
Nikolas, it probably depends on what stage of development and how aggressive of a driver you are. When you are at your first weekend or two or driving, you will not likely use much brake because you aren't likely full throttle into the braking zones, you probably coast on the straights some and then slow down WAY too early as well as not pressing the brake hard enough.
The stage of development where you will use the most brakes is once you have the confidence to go flat into the braking zone and then threshold brake. These are both good things, but almost always you will not be apexing early enough to carrying a lot of speed through the corner. This is what eats brakes compared to really advanced drivers. Go deep into the braking zone, really getting on the brakes, and then overslowing for the turn, which almost everyone will do at some point, is the hardest on the brakes.
It's moreso intermediate drivers.
The stage of development where you will use the most brakes is once you have the confidence to go flat into the braking zone and then threshold brake. These are both good things, but almost always you will not be apexing early enough to carrying a lot of speed through the corner. This is what eats brakes compared to really advanced drivers. Go deep into the braking zone, really getting on the brakes, and then overslowing for the turn, which almost everyone will do at some point, is the hardest on the brakes.
It's moreso intermediate drivers.