Anyone use this LSD?
#16
10-06-2011 | 05:36 AM
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,534
From: New Jersey
Rep Power: 117
Pump can be added and has been done by mike kelly and someone else to.aid cooling, doesn't look all that tough. As far as gt2 lad its not a direct fit nor easy to find. There is a few debates about which to use.
#17
10-06-2011 | 08:37 AM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,696
From: Portland Oregon
Rep Power: 187
Pump can be added and has been done by mike kelly and someone else to.aid cooling, doesn't look all that tough. As far as gt2 lad its not a direct fit nor easy to find. There is a few debates about which to use.
#18
10-07-2011 | 02:16 PM
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 513
From: Boulder, CO
Rep Power: 0
Hello,
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
#19
10-07-2011 | 02:21 PM
Registered User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,516
From: Scotland
Rep Power: 98
Hello,
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
Frank
#20
10-07-2011 | 02:29 PM
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 513
From: Boulder, CO
Rep Power: 0
Frank,
I knew I would miss something. I saw your comment earlier in the thread and meant to say something. Where do I start? Actually it's pretty straight forward. Paul Guard started the R&D on the Tip TBD before I bought the company. I finished it and made the diff. I informed Paul that it was done, at which point he mentions to me that what he previously told me was a 996TT Tip sample diff might actually be a 996 Carrera Tip diff. He can't remember where it came from or who supplied the initial sample. Doh! Facepalm!
Since then I've been trying to find someone to partner with who has a Tip gearbox on the back shelf of their shop who can pull out the stock diff and dimensionally compare it to my new one. The Carrera and the Turbo Tip are from two different vendors. They are significantly different gearboxes. At this point, I am holding off making a new product announcement until I find out what I've actually made. I'm hoping it's for the Turbo because that's what I thought I made. If it's not, I'm out $25k of R&D and new product inventory that's going to take years to sell because I got some bad intell. from my business partner.
I knew I would miss something. I saw your comment earlier in the thread and meant to say something. Where do I start? Actually it's pretty straight forward. Paul Guard started the R&D on the Tip TBD before I bought the company. I finished it and made the diff. I informed Paul that it was done, at which point he mentions to me that what he previously told me was a 996TT Tip sample diff might actually be a 996 Carrera Tip diff. He can't remember where it came from or who supplied the initial sample. Doh! Facepalm!
Since then I've been trying to find someone to partner with who has a Tip gearbox on the back shelf of their shop who can pull out the stock diff and dimensionally compare it to my new one. The Carrera and the Turbo Tip are from two different vendors. They are significantly different gearboxes. At this point, I am holding off making a new product announcement until I find out what I've actually made. I'm hoping it's for the Turbo because that's what I thought I made. If it's not, I'm out $25k of R&D and new product inventory that's going to take years to sell because I got some bad intell. from my business partner.
#22
10-07-2011 | 02:38 PM
Registered User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,516
From: Scotland
Rep Power: 98
Frank,
I knew I would miss something. I saw your comment earlier in the thread and meant to say something. Where do I start? Actually it's pretty straight forward. Paul Guard started the R&D on the Tip TBD before I bought the company. I finished it and made the diff. I informed Paul that it was done, at which point he mentions to me that what he previously told me was a 996TT Tip sample diff might actually be a 996 Carrera Tip diff. He can't remember where it came from or who supplied the initial sample. Doh! Facepalm!
Since then I've been trying to find someone to partner with who has a Tip gearbox on the back shelf of their shop who can pull out the stock diff and dimensionally compare it to my new one. The Carrera and the Turbo Tip are from two different vendors. They are significantly different gearboxes. At this point, I am holding off making a new product announcement until I find out what I've actually made. I'm hoping it's for the Turbo because that's what I thought I made. If it's not, I'm out $25k of R&D and new product inventory that's going to take years to sell because I got some bad intell. from my business partner.
I knew I would miss something. I saw your comment earlier in the thread and meant to say something. Where do I start? Actually it's pretty straight forward. Paul Guard started the R&D on the Tip TBD before I bought the company. I finished it and made the diff. I informed Paul that it was done, at which point he mentions to me that what he previously told me was a 996TT Tip sample diff might actually be a 996 Carrera Tip diff. He can't remember where it came from or who supplied the initial sample. Doh! Facepalm!
Since then I've been trying to find someone to partner with who has a Tip gearbox on the back shelf of their shop who can pull out the stock diff and dimensionally compare it to my new one. The Carrera and the Turbo Tip are from two different vendors. They are significantly different gearboxes. At this point, I am holding off making a new product announcement until I find out what I've actually made. I'm hoping it's for the Turbo because that's what I thought I made. If it's not, I'm out $25k of R&D and new product inventory that's going to take years to sell because I got some bad intell. from my business partner.
Over here, Ken who owns Nine Excellence has the MKB contract for the upgrades. My car is in there at the moment and were hoping for K24/18g performance from some new development K16/39 turbos. If so I think he has a few customers line up with Tips as well. I think he would be able to sell an LSD as part of his packages. Perhaps it might be an idea to have a chat with him ( 996ttalot). I would be up for one as soon as they become available. There must be loads over here including Ken who would love to have a slipper in there TT tip.
If you want an interest list I'm first in line.
1. Frank Smith "Sunnyside"
#23
10-07-2011 | 03:01 PM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,696
From: Portland Oregon
Rep Power: 187
Hello,
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
This thread popped up on my radar because I get an email notification anytime our name is mentioned in a thread. I'm not going to try to sell you anything and don't ask me any questions about mine versus "theirs" because I just don't play that game. I'm just going to give you some technical input and things to think about with respect to the decision that several people here seem to be going back and forth about regarding putting a performance differential in their cars.
First of all, we don't refer to TBDs as LSDs. I know Quaife does as do many other companies marketing them. We'll always call them a TBD. There's no limit to the amount of slip in a TBD. This is why when you lift a wheel it acts like an open differential. It requires some amount of resistance for there to be power transfer to the other wheel. An LSD, on the other hand, still transfers power through it's clutches, even when there's a wheel in the air.
For the particular application being discussed here, I feel that a TBD is a very good option worth considering. We've sold quite a few of our own TBDs for use in 996TTs in recent years. For a street rod or for a car that sees light track use, they are great option, within certain parameters.
One of those parameters is power. I can't speak to Quaife, or Wavetrac, who are the two other competing manufacturers of TBDs for these cars, but with respect to our own TBD, we generally advise people against installing one in a car with more than around 500whp. The little planetary gears, whose size is limited by the available space within the differential case, just aren't big enough for much more power than that. Sometimes we have customers who go higher with them, but we're not comfortable "rating" them for more than that. You can draw your own conclusions with respect to other companies' products but I'll tell you that their planetary gears aren't any bigger than ours. And I doubt that anyone's steel quality and heat treat is better either. If someone tells you your 700whp car is fine with a TBD, take that advice with a grain of salt. Or look to what the tuners are doing. Champion, EVOMS, TPC, etc are all using LSDs, usually one of ours or a factory Porsche one, in their 800whp, 1000whp, 1200whp builds. TBDs aren't for high powered cars.
The other parameter is that I usually only suggest it for cars that are still AWD. People who have gone the 2WD route are often the same guys who are track junkies. If you are tracking the car a lot, you're going to wear out the drive gears in a TBD in several seasons of events with the power you guys make. Contrary to internet myth, TBDs don't last forever and do wear out. Introduce more heat and more wheel slip with lots of track miles and you wear them out more quickly. It's just physics.
But that doesn't seem to be the people in this thread who are interested in these. I am getting the impression people here are more casual track guys who want an upgraded diff. And even on the street (or the occasional trip to the Friday night 1/4 mile or a trip down to the Texas Mile) a lock up on acceleration makes the TBD an immediately obvious improvement. It's a good option for you guys, without the maintenance of an LSD.
Something else that you frequently see regarding the 996TT in AWD form is people complain about corner entry push when they do track them. Porsche deliberately dialed understeer into the car to make it "safer" but when you go play at the track it's generally more than most people want. If you put in an LSD, which locks up under braking, you are reintroducing some of that push that you may have already fought to remove with suspension mods. A TBD doesn't do that. The fact that the TBD doesn't lock up under braking, which the hardcore track guys complain about, turns out to be an asset for the casual once or twice a year DE guys. And you still get all this extra power to the ground on corner exit.
I see mention of installing a factory GT2/GT3 LSD as an option. This is a good option for some people, though once you are done with it you will likely has spent just as much as you would have for a new TBD. Here's a thread to educate you around the OEM diffs, what their liabilities are, how they can be fixed, and what spec to be looking for when you are shopping in the used market to maximize performance and minimize cost:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...sd-buster.html
Lastly I'll just touch on cooling. For once or twice a year at the track with Chin Motorsports or PCA don't worry about it. It takes about 20 minutes for a gearbox to come up to temp. Most of the DE sessions are 20-30 minutes long. And a TBD doesn't introduce a lot of extra heat into the gearbox like a clutch type LSD does. If you do want to install a cooler there's two ways to do it. Mikekelley was mentioned. He did it the factory GT2 way. It's about $2500 in parts. Or you can just get an external cooler, a pump, and some lines for around $1000 (or less). The OEM route require a complete teardown of the box. The "cheap" way can use the fill and drain plugs retapped for AN fittings and can be done during the differential install. It's much cheaper and if you aren't seriously tracking the car it's more than adequate.
I think that's about it. I know it's a long post but there were a bunch of comments that didn't seem 100% answered. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be around and am happy to help you figure out what is the best option for you specifically and not just give you some boilerplate generic sales answer.
Regards,
Matt
#24
10-07-2011 | 03:43 PM
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 513
From: Boulder, CO
Rep Power: 0
As for the other? That's not something you'll ever see put out there by us. Our position is the right way to install an LSD is with one of these:
If you don't have a 385 bar all you are doing is guessing. That tool costs more than you'll pay a competent mechanic who owns the tool to install the LSD for you.
And if you do it yourself and it's wrong, it's about a $4000 mistake when you replace you ring and pinion. People complain about the labor to work on these cars, but there's just certain things where a good mechanic is worth every cent he charges. Inside the gearbox is one of those places.
#25
10-07-2011 | 04:05 PM
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,787
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Rep Power: 208
Hi Matt. Thanks for the great, informative post. I spoke with Paul a few years ago and he too provided a huge amount of very useful, technical information.
What's the recommendation where WHP >500 AND the car is planned to retain the AWD setup?
What's the recommendation where WHP >500 AND the car is planned to retain the AWD setup?
#26
10-11-2011 | 10:49 AM
Former Vendor
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 513
From: Boulder, CO
Rep Power: 0
While it introduces some push, once you are making that kind of power, you want a real clutch type LSD in there. The biggest problem then becomes blowing the center viscous coupler.
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