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Second fuel pump question need help asap

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Old 02-02-2012, 07:56 AM
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Question Second fuel pump question need help asap

So my tech is assembling all new stuff on engine and says fitting a second fuel pump in place of the fuel filter is a waste of time.

This is the mail he sent which explains why

Hi Adam,
*
Re thge second fuel pump, I can`t see any reason to fit this pump, as well as being difficult as we will have to have some unions made so it can be fitted to existing fittings, it won`t actually do anything, the main pump in the tank will provide the pressure, fitting an extra pump in series will not increase pressure or flow, if the first pump cant deliver enough, the additional wont make any difference, if the first pump failed the second pump couldnt pump any fuel as it needs to suck it through the first pump, and the pressure is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator, which is not affected by an additional pump.
*
My thoughts are we dont fit it, its extra work and expense for no benefit, I will run the wires inside the car so something can be done at a later date, but the installation of an extra pump in that way just doesnt make any logical sense.
*
Regards

Can anyone help with this or elaborate? Thankyou
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:16 AM
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Yes it is more involved then just buying a pump...
that is why some of us make such kits... so that mechanics like him do not complain.
Benefit is that with 60 lbs injectors you can run 850hp vs 700 hp on oem config...

with this set up you have no room to put the pump unless you use our blow thru set up:



with this set up you can put it on any 996tt with OEM parts:



 
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:19 AM
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But the tech is saying that running in line with original fuel pump will offer no benefit what so ever as it cant make pump flow any more
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
But the tech is saying that running in line with original fuel pump will offer no benefit what so ever as it cant make pump flow any more
I cannot help those who do not want to helped. Choose your opinions but choose wisely.
If your not going over 620whp you do not need it..
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:49 AM
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bro you really need to get you self a new tech cause your current one is clueless
i run maskskis setup , have for years with big turbos etc, i run over 720 whp on race gas .

so i would say, it does provide a significant benefit. you should get a the kit from 911 tuning.
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
But the tech is saying that running in line with original fuel pump will offer no benefit what so ever as it cant make pump flow any more
There are hundreds of 996tts with a second 044 pump installed. Mine is one of them, and yes they work and are needed with if you are putting in larger injectors. Are you adding larger injectors, new turbos, and a re-tune?
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:09 PM
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Adding injectors ic clitch a28 inlet piped race cats 3 inch exhaust 60lb etc. but my techs answer to this is just because alot do it doesnt make it right. I am trying to find some technical info on how this works. He says unless the second pump has its own source of fuel it cant add any more
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
Adding injectors ic clitch a28 inlet piped race cats 3 inch exhaust 60lb etc. but my techs answer to this is just because alot do it doesnt make it right. I am trying to find some technical info on how this works. He says unless the second pump has its own source of fuel it cant add any more
Get a new shop. This guy will screw up something in the install and your car isn't going to run right. Hell, you might not even notice but you'll be leaving power/drivability on the table. Seriously, half the posts on this message board are people trying to fix what some indy screwed up on a big $ build.

These cars have extremely small margins for error....
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:30 PM
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I will talk with him again tomorrow but this guy does have a past in formula one and then rally car building at world class level. I went with this guy because i didnt want the car messed up
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:36 PM
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I'm sure there are ways to install a 2nd pump that would fit his description, but people routinely run this setup. Stock pump runs out about 700bhp and the inline pumps get enough extra to run like 850bhp. There are many examples of people dyno tuning on a single pump, getting a lean fuel mixture, adding 2nd inline pump, and voila! Not lean anymore.

If you'd like a good read on it, a member 'johnspeed' on here went through this exact scenario a few months ago.

Here's the link
 

Last edited by vr4henry; 02-02-2012 at 01:38 PM. Reason: link added
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:12 PM
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Could you post a link please
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony@epl
60lb injectors to 850hps?
Yes : with the pump... hits about 780rwhp... but if someone wants that power and will be up there all the time I suggest 80 lbs injectors with the pump...
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
Adding injectors ic clitch a28 inlet piped race cats 3 inch exhaust 60lb etc. but my techs answer to this is just because alot do it doesnt make it right. I am trying to find some technical info on how this works. He says unless the second pump has its own source of fuel it cant add any more
not be a d1ck , but your shop tech is a tool. he can have experience with whatever, but he sounds a bit clueless when it comes to porsches.

Tod K, from protomotive uses this method also and hes one of the best tuner ,engine builder , if not the best in the world.

i know of tons of cars running this system , all over 700 whp with no issues ,and perfect afr's.

find your self a new shop.
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:13 PM
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Pumps don't create pressure

pumps in series < pumps in parallel when it comes to flow (pumps being equal)
 
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony@epl
Ok... just looking at the simple science of it for a second.

(power*bsfc)/ (# of injectors/ Target duty cycle run) = approx injector size

Solving for stock BSFC:
Stock power = 415
BSFC = X
# Of injectors = 6
Max DC stock under load = 80

(415 * X)/(6 /80) = 44lb

x=.61

Now a tuned car with 850hp and 60lb injectors:

(850* X)/(6/90%) = 60

Tuned power = 850
BSFC = X
# Of injectors = 6
Max DC stock under load = 90

x= .4479


The math doesnt add up... I don't understand how anyone could be picking up 35%+ efficiency especially when you consider that factory BSFC is based on a MUCH leaner AF ratio.

If this is possible... who ever figures it out would make way more money designing engines for OE applications then tuning cars .
ok.. BTW, I dont want to turn this into an argument... my car had 60 lbs ( I know I saw them in the car lol) and it made 870rwp with 2 dual 044s but parallel and big lines to and form tank.. no joke.. car ran a 9 second run and 4.54 60 to 130 back in the days... so mathematically speaking that is impossible...
Im not kidding thats the truth... car never blew up...
 
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160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
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