996 Turbo / GT2 Turbo discussion on previous model 2000-2005 Porsche 911 Twin Turbo and 911 GT2.

k24 /18g _ 72lb injectors dyno results are in

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  #31  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
Also on the mod list it says proto tune! Do protomotive not know what they are doing and set to much boost?
It's a combination of tune and the way wgs are set. You should be running no more then 1.25 bar.
That's how i release cars on pump. Your tune has lots of timing so boost has to be Lower
 
  #32  
Old 02-24-2012, 07:51 AM
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Your car clearly has an issue - even our k1639s trap 130mph in the 1/4 and they flow 1 lb p/m less each turbo. That runs 7.0 seconds dead 60-130 with 2 up on vpower.

We have a shop car k2418g with all the correct 911tuning/protomotive components including Todd K tune and it makes 132mph in the 1/4, runs 7.1 dead 60-130mph with two up, all on vpower99. We run k2418g at 1.35 bar - that is perfect for those turbos on vpower99. We run 1.45 bar on mixture of ms109 and vpower.

Forget dyno numbers, run the times.

Your first step should be to check whether you have any boost leaks, then cracking pressures are correct and so on. You are also going to be fighting against the fact that you are putting together components from different sources which are untried as a package.

Have you checked your MAF figures on boost? You need to be datalogging but your tuning shop should have been doing that already.

Ken
 

Last edited by 996ttalot; 02-24-2012 at 08:00 AM.
  #33  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:34 AM
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996ttalot. Your car seems very fast, what do you use for testing, i used to use a vtech meter v11 on my previous car. Havnt got it rigged in the porsche yet. What boost pressure do you run on your modified k16? I have a2860 which basicaly have a modified k16 hotside mated to garrett gt2860rs cold side. Is that a similar setup to yours? Would love to meet over summer maybe and compare notes
 
  #34  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mpsuk
996ttalot. Your car seems very fast, what do you use for testing, i used to use a vtech meter v11 on my previous car. Havnt got it rigged in the porsche yet. What boost pressure do you run on your modified k16? I have a2860 which basicaly have a modified k16 hotside mated to garrett gt2860rs cold side. Is that a similar setup to yours? Would love to meet over summer maybe and compare notes
Those cars are slow compared to our shop car 9E800 which was running 22 seconds to 300kph at Bruntingthorpe. That is now being rebuilt to 1000hp running 3.8, 80lb injectors, custom fuel system, custom garretts and so on. We are looking for 16-18 seconds to 300kph - we will see in a few months.

As to testing, frankly whilst people do want to know hp, we concentrate on 0-300kph and 60-130mph. We use vbox to test with and durametrics to log the data. Cars can be quick to 120/130mph but we have tested many competitors tunes here in the UK and they pull timing at just 120mph. It is all about intake air temps (IATs) on these cars.

On our k1639 package we run 1.55 bar. They where designed from scratch and basically had the remit to build a turbo that would provide the same performance as k24/18gs, but with quicker spool. Running 1.55 bar with 60lb injectors and 3.8fpr is perfect on vpower, so much so that we ran the car flat out for 53 minutes at Bruntingthorpe, each lap up to 195-200 mph without any issues. The compressor map for turbos at 1.55 is very efficient.

I can tell you that we tried many different set ups on turbos before we got this right - too large (wheel) generates too much heat too quickly with the k16 housing and so on. We now ceramic coat the turbos to help as well.

In side by side testing, the k1639 beat the k2418g to 300kph by 1 second, but to 320kph the 18g just pulled through.

We go to bruntingthorpe testing every few months so since it is close to you might be an idea to catch up on a testing day that will give you a chance to get your car tested as well.

ken
 

Last edited by 996ttalot; 02-24-2012 at 08:52 AM.
  #35  
Old 02-24-2012, 10:22 AM
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That sounds good, my car is in tuning shop as i type so will be ready soon, ill keep in touch
 
  #36  
Old 02-25-2012, 05:31 AM
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My car just dumped its coolant on the dyno, cant have been bled properly. More delays
 
  #37  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 996ttalot
Those cars are slow compared to our shop car 9E800 which was running 22 seconds to 300kph at Bruntingthorpe. That is now being rebuilt to 1000hp running 3.8, 80lb injectors, custom fuel system, custom garretts and so on. We are looking for 16-18 seconds to 300kph - we will see in a few months.

As to testing, frankly whilst people do want to know hp, we concentrate on 0-300kph and 60-130mph. We use vbox to test with and durametrics to log the data. Cars can be quick to 120/130mph but we have tested many competitors tunes here in the UK and they pull timing at just 120mph. It is all about intake air temps (IATs) on these cars.

On our k1639 package we run 1.55 bar. They where designed from scratch and basically had the remit to build a turbo that would provide the same performance as k24/18gs, but with quicker spool. Running 1.55 bar with 60lb injectors and 3.8fpr is perfect on vpower, so much so that we ran the car flat out for 53 minutes at Bruntingthorpe, each lap up to 195-200 mph without any issues. The compressor map for turbos at 1.55 is very efficient.

I can tell you that we tried many different set ups on turbos before we got this right - too large (wheel) generates too much heat too quickly with the k16 housing and so on. We now ceramic coat the turbos to help as well.

In side by side testing, the k1639 beat the k2418g to 300kph by 1 second, but to 320kph the 18g just pulled through.

We go to bruntingthorpe testing every few months so since it is close to you might be an idea to catch up on a testing day that will give you a chance to get your car tested as well.

ken
how much air does your turbos flow?
 
  #38  
Old 02-25-2012, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bad107
how much air does your turbos flow?
The 1639s flow 39lb p/m so 1lb less than k2418gs, but they spool so much quicker, hence why to 300kph they will beat the 18g.

You have to forget bigger is better - you could put in a 52lb wheel in a k16 turbo but it won't work well because the turbine will struggle. And it is not just about flow.

btw, those 18gs are the billet 18gs as well.

We are now building another 1639 car, but this time with
- 4.5 ICs instead of 3.5 ICs
- y-pipe with ford maf instead of soft piping
- ceramic coating the turbos
- ipd

So we expect the car to be even quicker to 300kph. That car will be finished and tested by end of March.

The 22 second car was running k2420gs hence why it was quicker.

Look at the testing we did with the k1639s below.
 
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  #39  
Old 02-25-2012, 11:10 AM
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This is AWD and these are definitely flywheel estimated numbers. If you look at the Dyno graph where it says CF (correction factor) it says Shoot_44 which is the Dyno Dynamics shoot out mode that has a built in correction for AWD cars as well as taking weather factor into the formula and calculating flywheel hp. Shoot_44 is the highest number you can get it to display on a DD and in Normal mode you can see about 70-75% of that number on DD.
 
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  #40  
Old 02-25-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 996ttalot
The 1639s flow 39lb p/m so 1lb less than k2418gs, but they spool so much quicker, hence why to 300kph they will beat the 18g.

You have to forget bigger is better - you could put in a 52lb wheel in a k16 turbo but it won't work well because the turbine will struggle. And it is not just about flow.

btw, those 18gs are the billet 18gs as well.

We are now building another 1639 car, but this time with
- 4.5 ICs instead of 3.5 ICs
- y-pipe with ford maf instead of soft piping
- ceramic coating the turbos
- ipd

So we expect the car to be even quicker to 300kph. That car will be finished and tested by end of March.

The 22 second car was running k2420gs hence why it was quicker.

Look at the testing we did with the k1639s below.
HI,Those turbos sound better then the K16 billets..How do your K24/911GT billet turbos stack up to the K24/18's??....Also do you use a stock or the one with a 74mm TB IPD plenum?Thanks..
 
  #41  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:52 AM
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Guys my car is not running 1.5bar of boost as such, it is holding 1.4 and peaking to 1.5bar.
 
  #42  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Yazz911TT
Guys my car is not running 1.5bar of boost as such, it is holding 1.4 and peaking to 1.5bar.
Still can't tell you much without some logs.
 
  #43  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:31 PM
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how do i post logs??
 
  #44  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Yazz911TT
how do i post logs??
You need durametrics - do you have it? If you loaded the tune from Todd K then you should have a cable and you can then download the software for free from www.durametric.com.

Have you a vbox? If so go and run a 60-130 time.

It is the only way you will know whether something is wrong - you should be running 7 to 7.25 seconds at that boost on vpower99 with 2 up and half a tank of fuel, on a 1 degree decline.

The other point is that the boost gauge is not that accurate. Many times I see 1.5 on the dash and it is actually 1.35-1.39 on the boost controller, or in the durametric logs.

1.35 is ideal on vpower, 1.45 on race fuel or combination.
 

Last edited by 996ttalot; 02-26-2012 at 01:07 PM.
  #45  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:42 AM
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Time RPM Engine load Ignition angle Oxygen sensing bank 1 Adaption range 2 (FRA) bank 1 Oxygen sensing bank 1 Lambda Value Oxygen sensing bank 2 Adaption range 2 (FRA) bank 2 Oxygen sensing bank 2 Lambda Value Boost pressure of sensor Setpoint boost pressure
897 17.95 4.5 1.01 1.03 1.02 0.99 1.01 1.02 1003.24 1009.26
20:42:04.7832618 906 17.86 4.5 1 1.03 0.99 1 1.01 1 1003.24 1009.26
20:42:04.9542618 899 17.93 4.5 1 1.03 1 1 1.01 1 1003.24 1009.26
20:50:22.3852618 2143 36.21 41.25 1 1.03 0.97 1 1.01 1.01 1008.52 1013.63
20:50:22.5562618 2132 42.19 36.75 1 1.03 0.88 1 1.01 0.89 1011.17 1013.63
20:50:22.7172618 2143 44.48 38.25 1 1.03 1.01 1 1.01 1.02 1009.49 1170.74
20:50:22.8582618 2186 85.17 27.75 1.02 1.03 1.02 1.02 1.01 1.03 1003.01 2416.13
20:50:22.9992618 2228 88.34 28.5 1.07 1.03 1.02 1.08 1.01 1.05 1016.29 2398.2
20:50:23.1402618 2287 91.52 29.25 1.06 1.02 0.94 1.08 1 0.95 1040 2402.23
20:50:23.2902618 2344 94.69 29.25 0.99 1.01 0.84 1.01 1 0.84 1074.69 2408.98
20:50:23.4312618 2405 97.52 30 0.92 1 0.86 0.95 0.99 0.85 1098.16 2411.99
20:50:23.5722618 2457 100.71 30 0.89 0.99 0.93 0.91 0.99 0.91 1124.38 2416.68
20:50:23.7032618 2514 103.64 30 0.88 0.99 0.98 0.9 0.99 0.97 1148.44 2427.54
20:50:23.8442618 2573 105.73 30.75 0.89 0.99 0.98 0.9 0.99 0.96 1171.02 2411.13
20:50:23.9752618 2623 108.66 29.25 0.88 0.99 0.97 0.88 0.99 0.96 1193.09 2411.29
20:50:24.1462618 2714 111.63 28.5 0.89 0.99 1.03 0.89 0.99 1 1223.67 2400.2
20:50:24.2862618 2781 114.61 27.75 0.91 0.99 1.02 0.91 0.99 1.01 1243.13 2400.23
20:50:24.4262618 2843 115.71 26.25 0.93 0.99 0.98 0.93 0.99 0.98 1265.04 2396.56
20:50:24.5672618 2911 118.22 26.25 0.95 0.99 0.97 0.94 0.99 0.97 1288.32 2394.34
20:50:24.7272618 3007 121.31 25.5 0.96 0.99 0.94 0.96 0.99 0.97 1319.53 2384.61
20:50:24.8692618 3077 123.87 24 0.98 0.99 0.94 0.98 0.99 0.95 1341.64 2369.88
20:50:24.9992618 3147 126.4 23.25 0.99 0.99 0.94 0.99 0.99 0.94 1378.71 2332.81
20:50:25.1412618 3222 129.75 21 1 0.99 0.93 1.01 0.99 0.92 1413.83 2317.81
20:50:25.2812618 3300 133.8 19.5 1.02 0.99 0.93 1.02 0.99 0.92 1451.25 2299.84
20:50:25.4122618 3380 140.32 16.5 1.04 0.99 0.92 1.05 0.99 0.93 1492.23 2261.88
20:50:25.5532618 3471 147.4 15 1.06 0.99 0.9 1.07 0.99 0.9 1558.71 2247.42
20:50:25.6942618 3560 155.41 14.25 1.06 0.99 0.88 1.08 0.99 0.87 1631.8 2233.28
20:50:25.8352618 3667 164.06 13.5 1.06 0.99 0.85 1.08 0.99 0.87 1714.34 2228.59
20:50:25.9672618 3771 173.46 12.75 1.07 0.99 0.86 1.1 0.99 0.87 1816.84 2206.02
20:50:26.1052618 3895 184.36 12 1.1 0.99 0.87 1.12 0.99 0.87 1921.25 2207.11
20:50:26.2462618 4013 196.48 11.25 1.12 0.99 0.85 1.14 0.99 0.84 2028.05 2217.03
20:50:26.3872618 4176 203.44 10.5 1.12 0.99 0.81 1.13 0.99 0.81 2082.62 2261.37
20:50:26.5292618 4260 214.13 8.25 1.12 0.99 0.81 1.14 0.99 0.82 2120.43 2279.84
20:50:26.6592618 4403 221.91 9 1.12 0.99 0.82 1.16 0.99 0.81 2205.55 2278.09
20:50:26.8002618 4566 221.41 9 1.15 0.99 0.82 1.18 0.99 0.82 2255.27 2275.43
20:50:26.9412618 4673 224.55 8.25 1.19 0.99 0.81 1.21 0.99 0.82 2241.88 2269.84
20:50:27.0812618 4789 222.7 10.5 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.2 0.99 0.8 2241.21 2266.88
20:50:27.2232618 4969 221.27 11.25 1.2 0.99 0.8 1.21 0.99 0.82 2240.43 2251.37
20:50:27.3832618 5049 219.07 11.25 1.2 0.99 0.78 1.21 0.99 0.81 2250.74 2268.98
20:50:27.5252618 5258 215.02 12 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.2 0.99 0.8 2249.49 2296.25
20:50:27.6602618 5357 213.49 13.5 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.21 0.99 0.81 2258.09 2288.91
20:50:27.8262618 5453 211.08 13.5 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.21 0.99 0.81 2279.14 2303.13
20:50:27.9642618 5585 209.95 14.25 1.2 0.99 0.78 1.21 0.99 0.8 2276.02 2313.91
20:50:28.0922618 5714 206.77 15.75 1.18 0.99 0.78 1.2 0.99 0.79 2276.17 2329.61
20:50:28.2332618 5834 199.83 17.25 1.18 0.99 0.8 1.2 0.99 0.8 2314.53 2378.4
20:50:28.3752618 5923 198.94 17.25 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.21 0.99 0.81 2329.18 2408.63
20:50:28.5522618 6062 193.88 18 1.19 0.99 0.79 1.21 0.99 0.81 2366.09 2490.35
20:50:28.6982618 6174 191.27 17.25 1.2 0.99 0.8 1.2 0.99 0.8 2360.78 2520.47
20:50:28.8342618 6271 187.36 18.75 1.23 0.99 0.84 1.23 0.99 0.83 2407.27 2545.23
20:50:28.9822618 6391 183.87 18.75 1.21 0.99 0.81 1.23 0.99 0.84 2429.34 2559.96
20:50:29.1212618 6454 185.06 19.5 1.2 0.99 0.8 1.23 0.99 0.83 2438.4 2549.96
20:50:29.2732618 6579 180.63 21 1.19 0.99 0.78 1.22 0.99 0.82 2446.99 2552.5
20:50:29.4142618 6717 175.22 23.25 1.21 0.99 0.8 1.21 0.99 0.81 2449.38 2525.94
20:50:29.5562618 6789 175.8 24.75 1.21 0.99 0.8 1.22 0.99 0.83 2438.91 2521.21
20:50:29.7012618 6925 167.67 22.5 1.23 0.99 0.84 1.24 0.99 0.86 2488.48 2402.77
20:50:29.8342618 6977 167.84 24 1.22 0.99 0.82 1.23 0.99 0.84 2452.89 2423.01
20:50:29.9802618 7092 168.33 24 1.2 0.99 0.79 1.23 0.99 0.84 2400.27 2424.8
20:50:30.1162618 7246 165.21 8.25 1.18 0.99 0.76 1.21 0.99 0.8 2343.71 1990.2
20:50:30.2642618 6956 164.98 24 1 0.99 0.9 1 0.99 0.93 2292.34 2531.17
20:50:30.4482618 7913 147.8 8.25 1.1 0.99 2.32 1.1 0.99 2.9 2261.33 1012.34
20:50:30.5832618 6661 81.26 10.5 1 0.99 4.27 1 0.99 5 1914.57 1012.27
20:50:30.7222618 5793 20.93 13.5 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1486.64 1012.19
20:50:30.8612618 5307 23.3 44.25 1 1.03 4.2 1 1.01 3.84 1344.49 2165.16
20:50:31.0002618 5642 111.63 22.5 1 0.99 0.78 1 0.99 0.82 1167.15 2183.79
20:50:31.1412618 5754 130.45 15.75 1 0.99 0.88 1 0.99 0.89 1418.52 2254.92
20:50:31.2822618 5807 171.94 17.25 1 0.99 0.83 1.03 0.99 0.85 1799.26 2351.09
20:50:31.4232618 5862 183.16 15 1.09 0.99 0.87 1.11 0.99 0.86 2114.34 2382.46
20:50:31.5552618 5918 187.52 14.25 1.24 0.99 0.9 1.25 0.99 0.91 2318.44 2426.33
20:50:31.6992618 5998 189.63 15 1.25 0.99 0.88 1.25 0.99 0.9 2449.14 2429.22
20:50:31.8432618 5582 118.92 1.5 1 0.99 1.12 1 0.99 1.39 2543.55 1011.68
20:50:31.9742618 5897 18.19 13.5 1 1.03 1.4 1 1.01 1.42 1618.71 1011.6
20:50:32.1172618 5902 14.77 22.5 1 1.03 1.29 1 1.01 1.36 1359.84 1011.56
20:50:32.2482618 5848 16.36 19.5 1 1.03 2.65 1 1.01 3.1 1272.7 1011.45
20:50:32.3902618 5808 16.27 18.75 1 1.03 4.53 1 1.01 5 1214.57 1011.41
20:50:32.5322618 5761 16.1 18.75 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1169.65 1011.33
20:50:32.6612618 5715 16.27 18 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1137.97 1011.29
20:50:32.8342618 5657 16.31 18 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1114.18 1011.21
20:50:32.9632618 5600 16.43 17.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1103.63 1011.13
20:50:33.1332618 5519 16.5 16.5 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1093.05 1011.05
20:50:33.2812618 5476 16.1 17.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1087.77 1011.02
20:50:33.4182618 5402 15.77 18.75 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1085.08 1010.98
20:50:33.5532618 5339 15.59 18.75 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1079.84 1010.9
20:50:33.6882618 5271 15.75 19.5 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1074.57 1010.9
20:50:33.8632618 5198 15.68 19.5 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1071.91 1010.82
20:50:34.0272618 5127 15.68 19.5 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1069.26 1010.78
20:50:34.1692618 5057 15.75 18 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1069.26 1010.74
20:50:34.3492618 4973 15.8 18.75 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1063.98 1010.7
20:50:34.4812618 4914 15.68 20.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1063.98 1010.7
20:50:34.6222618 4858 15.56 20.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1061.37 1010.7
20:50:34.7522618 4799 15.54 20.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1061.37 1010.66
20:50:34.8932618 4751 15.68 20.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1058.71 1010.66
20:50:35.0342618 4701 15.3 20.25 1 1.03 5 1 1.01 5 1058.71 1010.63
 


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