EVOMS clubsport intercoolers vs 997.2 for 600whp
#47
03-21-2012, 03:39 AM
Bigger is better...still in somebodys heads...
I dont think the Gt2RS Intercooler is a restriction, the diameters are big enough for well over 1000hp...
I can show you pics of a guy in germany who drives 1200whp in his supra with smaller pipe diameters then a 996TT...
i drive the GT2RS IC in my GT2 and they work very well...HP is only 650 but I am only 0,1s slower then Dr.jiu from 60-130 without a shift
5" is to think from my point of view!
I dont think the Gt2RS Intercooler is a restriction, the diameters are big enough for well over 1000hp...
I can show you pics of a guy in germany who drives 1200whp in his supra with smaller pipe diameters then a 996TT...
i drive the GT2RS IC in my GT2 and they work very well...HP is only 650 but I am only 0,1s slower then Dr.jiu from 60-130 without a shift
5" is to think from my point of view!
#48
03-21-2012, 04:51 AM
Bigger is better...still in somebodys heads...
I dont think the Gt2RS Intercooler is a restriction, the diameters are big enough for well over 1000hp...
I can show you pics of a guy in germany who drives 1200whp in his supra with smaller pipe diameters then a 996TT...
i drive the GT2RS IC in my GT2 and they work very well...HP is only 650 but I am only 0,1s slower then Dr.jiu from 60-130 without a shift
5" is to think from my point of view!
I dont think the Gt2RS Intercooler is a restriction, the diameters are big enough for well over 1000hp...
I can show you pics of a guy in germany who drives 1200whp in his supra with smaller pipe diameters then a 996TT...
i drive the GT2RS IC in my GT2 and they work very well...HP is only 650 but I am only 0,1s slower then Dr.jiu from 60-130 without a shift
5" is to think from my point of view!
#49
03-21-2012, 07:58 AM
For me, forget about the bigger / better comparison.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
#50
03-21-2012, 09:14 AM
For me, forget about the bigger / better comparison.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
In statistics (which I taught in college) we have a saying "garbage in, garbage out." What that means is that empirical data is worthless if it is built upon a flawed theory.
Another point, in reference to my 60-130 time on the board, that was before another 2 rounds ($15K) in mods: Full blow through, TB, injector upgrade, 3 inch exhaust, and several other upgrades. It was also when I had the 3.5 Evo clubsports.
Back to the OP, I think that the 997.2 ICs are a very good choice at a certain power level, but now for the higher hp cars.
#51
03-21-2012, 09:18 AM
Okay I give up. 
I just showed independent data done in the same conditions on the same road on the same fuel on the same car with the only difference being Brand "E" ICs replaced with 997.2 coolers. The latter clobbering Brand "E" in both IATs and elapsed time under sustained loading on a 650rwhp+ car (60-130 in the 5s) all the way up to 200mph.
Am I missing something here folks?
I just showed independent data done in the same conditions on the same road on the same fuel on the same car with the only difference being Brand "E" ICs replaced with 997.2 coolers. The latter clobbering Brand "E" in both IATs and elapsed time under sustained loading on a 650rwhp+ car (60-130 in the 5s) all the way up to 200mph.Am I missing something here folks?
#52
03-21-2012, 09:47 AM
For me, forget about the bigger / better comparison.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
The charts that were posted about the 997.2 intercoolers were against "Aftermarket Intercoolers".
As far as I know, a certain brand that they tested the 997.2's against were never released, and I would hope that most people know that not all AM intercoolers are made the same. Chineese cores vs a good Bell core is completely different.
Club sports use a very good core, so if you are going to throw up comparison charts, make sure that they are DIRECT comparisons, not just a generic "Aftermarket Intercoolers" label.
AM ICs / Brand E in the first plot = EvoMS Clubsport
The 997.2s have clobbered the 3.5" Bell cores as well. Unfortunately I can't share the numerous PMs from folks who have gone from all kinds of brands to 997.2s with great results since the vendors refunded their money and requested to remain anonymous. Perhaps they'll jump in and share their results.
Do you really think that the charge air cooling issues Porsche motorsport teams have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars researching and testing were magically solved by a $300 one size fits all Bell core?
These results should not be surprising. Porsche listened to the racing pros here when they developed this intercooler -its a good thing folks!
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu
The info posted by Earl claims that some "aftermarket" (first letter P) IC ran much hotter (over 50c, close to 125 f). I know that if he is claiming that that was data about the protos, then I know it is complete BS.
Show me your logs of Protos up to 200mph where IAT doesn't budge.
Don't get me wrong, Proto & Evo makes great coolers that are worlds better than stock, but there are limitations.
Last edited by earl3; 03-21-2012 at 10:24 AM.
#53
03-21-2012, 09:59 AM
I'm with Earl on this. After we designed our exhaust and flowed a lot of exhaust in the market for 996t we realized where tuners are just getting it plain wrong. Most just stick pipes together and call it a free flowing exhaust, because they think /looks the most efficient. It's comical to say the least. I'm sure if we had all the dimensions and core size's we can flow this on my software that I have and we can truly see what is going on. But i'm very happy with my 2rs intercoolers. I' know porsche did their homework and not just put things together. 
#54
03-21-2012, 10:29 AM
Lets put the thicker is better argument to bed (or at least stir the conventional thought pot a bit). They work OK as heat sinks for ultimate flow and are worlds better than stock, but as heat exchangers, they lag the thinner, more dense (and generally more expensive) cores in IAT control. There is a reason motorsport teams with emphasis on endurance and 6 figures into heat exchanger R&D keep returning to a ~3.5" core.
Here's the popular 5" cooler on an "800hp" GT30 car vs a very dense, but expensive 3.5" cooler on a 660hp VTG car (read: lots of heat), both cars running 1.5-1.6 bar of boost, both to 300kph and both within 1C ambient. The 660hp car gets there a touch (0.5s) quicker but the real takeaway is in the IATs as the thinner core peaks and then actually starts cooling down as speed increases.
5"
3.5"
Absolutely! and this entire argument dies quickly when we get into the merits of chemical intercooling (aka water/meth injection). A well setup $500 kit can clobber $20,000 ICs -if you've got a big enough tank. Also, so much depends on how the car will be used -road racing and mile type events with sustained loading come to mind for this discussion.
Yeah hopefully we can stick more to a technical discussion.
On another note, someone just DIY welded 2 997.2 cores together with endtanks on a 993 Turbo and, so far, has seen Secan-like results of ~20C over ambient (its on R-list). We'll see how they do in warmer temps.
Here's the popular 5" cooler on an "800hp" GT30 car vs a very dense, but expensive 3.5" cooler on a 660hp VTG car (read: lots of heat), both cars running 1.5-1.6 bar of boost, both to 300kph and both within 1C ambient. The 660hp car gets there a touch (0.5s) quicker but the real takeaway is in the IATs as the thinner core peaks and then actually starts cooling down as speed increases.
5"
3.5"
Absolutely! and this entire argument dies quickly when we get into the merits of chemical intercooling (aka water/meth injection). A well setup $500 kit can clobber $20,000 ICs -if you've got a big enough tank. Also, so much depends on how the car will be used -road racing and mile type events with sustained loading come to mind for this discussion.
Yeah hopefully we can stick more to a technical discussion.
On another note, someone just DIY welded 2 997.2 cores together with endtanks on a 993 Turbo and, so far, has seen Secan-like results of ~20C over ambient (its on R-list). We'll see how they do in warmer temps.
#55
03-21-2012, 10:47 AM
All I do care is performance..All those analysing means nothing without real results.
Watch Toby in another forum claims that his car has best Intercoolers, internals, tune...etc then what!???
Ran 0-300kmh ( 0-187mph ) in 22-23sec....WTF!!
We saw those numbers 2-3 years ago with modded vtgs on stock engine on warmer weather. See cars in 6speedonline 60-130, TX mile, Moscow unlimi...etc
Both in Russia and middeleast highway pulling went to +300kmh weekly
Most of cars who won or ran FAST has bigger Intercoolers from TPC/Proto and SPI.
Has any one saw FAST car ran secan or other bull**** European Intercoolers?
REAL RESULTS what we are looking for and those graphs won't let you ran faster or win a race IMO!
Watch Toby in another forum claims that his car has best Intercoolers, internals, tune...etc then what!???
Ran 0-300kmh ( 0-187mph ) in 22-23sec....WTF!!
We saw those numbers 2-3 years ago with modded vtgs on stock engine on warmer weather. See cars in 6speedonline 60-130, TX mile, Moscow unlimi...etc
Both in Russia and middeleast highway pulling went to +300kmh weekly
Most of cars who won or ran FAST has bigger Intercoolers from TPC/Proto and SPI.
Has any one saw FAST car ran secan or other bull**** European Intercoolers?
REAL RESULTS what we are looking for and those graphs won't let you ran faster or win a race IMO!
Last edited by MannschaftQ8; 03-21-2012 at 10:49 AM.
#56
03-21-2012, 12:16 PM
You were running K16s. Of course larger ICs will kill your performance. Brand E is Evoms, check, but who is brand AM? I would like to see a test of Markskis ICs (which are very similar to Protomotives) but it would have to be on a car that is suitable (IE not a k16 car).
And in regards to cost, the custom fabrication would offset that.
I thought you said you had data on a full monty GT30 car, can you provide the link? As I have said repeatedly, the ICs need to match the car. The only proof I have seen is that the 997.2 ICs are better for a barely modded car.
And in regards to cost, the custom fabrication would offset that.
I thought you said you had data on a full monty GT30 car, can you provide the link? As I have said repeatedly, the ICs need to match the car. The only proof I have seen is that the 997.2 ICs are better for a barely modded car.
I'll make it clear.
AM ICs / Brand E in the first plot = EvoMS Clubsport
The 997.2s have clobbered the 3.5" Bell cores as well. Unfortunately I can't share the numerous PMs from folks who have gone from all kinds of brands to 997.2s with great results since the vendors refunded their money and requested to remain anonymous. Perhaps they'll jump in and share their results.
Do you really think that the charge air cooling issues Porsche motorsport teams have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars researching and testing were magically solved by a $300 one size fits all Bell core?
These results should not be surprising. Porsche listened to the racing pros here when they developed this intercooler -its a good thing folks!
Here are the logs my BS claims are coming from: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/225492-997-2-intercoolers-wow-3.html#post3012321
Show me your logs of Protos up to 200mph where IAT doesn't budge.
Don't get me wrong, Proto & Evo makes great coolers that are worlds better than stock, but there are limitations.
AM ICs / Brand E in the first plot = EvoMS Clubsport
The 997.2s have clobbered the 3.5" Bell cores as well. Unfortunately I can't share the numerous PMs from folks who have gone from all kinds of brands to 997.2s with great results since the vendors refunded their money and requested to remain anonymous. Perhaps they'll jump in and share their results.
Do you really think that the charge air cooling issues Porsche motorsport teams have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars researching and testing were magically solved by a $300 one size fits all Bell core?
These results should not be surprising. Porsche listened to the racing pros here when they developed this intercooler -its a good thing folks!
Here are the logs my BS claims are coming from: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/225492-997-2-intercoolers-wow-3.html#post3012321
Show me your logs of Protos up to 200mph where IAT doesn't budge.
Don't get me wrong, Proto & Evo makes great coolers that are worlds better than stock, but there are limitations.
#57
03-21-2012, 12:24 PM
All of you are not making sense, you don't care about your car and are cheap if you don't buy the SECANS!!!!!
You can't call yourself serious about performance without SECANS!!!
S-E-C-A-N-S!!!!!!!!!
You can't call yourself serious about performance without SECANS!!!
S-E-C-A-N-S!!!!!!!!!
#58
03-21-2012, 12:25 PM
This is not what anyone would consider to be a high hp car.
Background on the test car:
01 996 TT 6 speed, ~38k miles, fresh plugs, 94 octane, K16 turbos
EPL Flash
2.5" turbo inlet pipes
Remus Exhaust
996GT2 Intercooler (same as 997.1) driver's side
997.2 Intercooler (same as GT2 RS) passenger's side
Background on the test car:
01 996 TT 6 speed, ~38k miles, fresh plugs, 94 octane, K16 turbos
EPL Flash
2.5" turbo inlet pipes
Remus Exhaust
996GT2 Intercooler (same as 997.1) driver's side
997.2 Intercooler (same as GT2 RS) passenger's side
#59
03-21-2012, 12:46 PM
You were running K16s. Of course larger ICs will kill your performance. Brand E is Evoms, check, but who is brand AM? I would like to see a test of Markskis ICs (which are very similar to Protomotives) but it would have to be on a car that is suitable (IE not a k16 car).
And in regards to cost, the custom fabrication would offset that.
I thought you said you had data on a full monty GT30 car, can you provide the link? As I have said repeatedly, the ICs need to match the car. The only proof I have seen is that the 997.2 ICs are better for a barely modded car.
And in regards to cost, the custom fabrication would offset that.
I thought you said you had data on a full monty GT30 car, can you provide the link? As I have said repeatedly, the ICs need to match the car. The only proof I have seen is that the 997.2 ICs are better for a barely modded car.
I will post it AGAIN:
Another extensive (and pretty conclusive
) test was performed tonight together with my friend skandalis comparing -in same road, similar conditions and same weight- EvoMS and GT2RS ICs. Large VTG car with modded internals (cams, rods, ported heads etc) running 1.55bar boost.
We got durametric logs, VBOX figures and also video. The GT2 RS coolers performed so much better than the EvoMS ones that we were both shocked.
Before we post more details we saw an improvement of about 20-25degrees in IATs at 100-300kms (yes you read right).
IATs were getting as high as 59 degrees with the EvoMS ones while with the GT2rs coolers they peaked at 41 degrees at around 250kms/hr and then started dropping to around 36degr at 300kms. We actually saw even lower IATs in some other runs.
in terms of performance;
100-200kms; 5.5 vs 5.0 secs best times
100-300kms; 18.65 vs 16.93 secs
Needless to say numbers above are personal best and i wonder if they could be improved with only 1 passenger.
Ambient temps were 12 degrees(EvoMS) vs 9 degrees (GT2RS).
We tried to keep most variables constant as much as possible so we had the same car/tune, same passengers, same fuel quality, same exact road.
This was truly a big surprise.. More to follow
) test was performed tonight together with my friend skandalis comparing -in same road, similar conditions and same weight- EvoMS and GT2RS ICs. Large VTG car with modded internals (cams, rods, ported heads etc) running 1.55bar boost.We got durametric logs, VBOX figures and also video. The GT2 RS coolers performed so much better than the EvoMS ones that we were both shocked.
Before we post more details we saw an improvement of about 20-25degrees in IATs at 100-300kms (yes you read right).
IATs were getting as high as 59 degrees with the EvoMS ones while with the GT2rs coolers they peaked at 41 degrees at around 250kms/hr and then started dropping to around 36degr at 300kms. We actually saw even lower IATs in some other runs.
in terms of performance;
100-200kms; 5.5 vs 5.0 secs best times
100-300kms; 18.65 vs 16.93 secs
Needless to say numbers above are personal best and i wonder if they could be improved with only 1 passenger.
Ambient temps were 12 degrees(EvoMS) vs 9 degrees (GT2RS).
We tried to keep most variables constant as much as possible so we had the same car/tune, same passengers, same fuel quality, same exact road.
This was truly a big surprise.. More to follow
Spend some time in this thread, this particular 997 owner went through several sets of intercoolers:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...me-over-6.html
Last edited by earl3; 03-21-2012 at 12:56 PM.
#60
03-21-2012, 02:40 PM
OK, that was not evident from the other link. And what you have proven is that the 997.2s are better than the EVOs. I can believe that. However, that is unrelated to my main point.
What I am interested in, is how the 997.2 ics would do against Switzers', Markskis', and Protomotives 4.5-5 inch ICs on an 800 whp GT30 car, full blow through and upgraded piping all the way through (TBs, etc). Do you have that data?
I know that 2 other "mystery ICs" were tested and kept secret. You can PM me the info. But like I said, you cannot convince me that Protos are at 124 degrees. I know that is not true because I have not been able to get mine above 114 degrees.
Quote:
" Another extensive (and pretty conclusive) test was performed tonight together with my friend skandalis comparing -in same road, similar conditions and same weight- EvoMS and GT2RS ICs. Large VTG car with modded internals (cams, rods, ported heads etc) running 1.55bar boost.
We got durametric logs, VBOX figures and also video. The GT2 RS coolers performed so much better than the EvoMS ones that we were both shocked.
Before we post more details we saw an improvement of about 20-25degrees in IATs at 100-300kms (yes you read right).
IATs were getting as high as 59 degrees with the EvoMS ones while with the GT2rs coolers they peaked at 41 degrees at around 250kms/hr and then started dropping to around 36degr at 300kms. We actually saw even lower IATs in some other runs.
in terms of performance;
100-200kms; 5.5 vs 5.0 secs best times
100-300kms; 18.65 vs 16.93 secs
Needless to say numbers above are personal best and i wonder if they could be improved with only 1 passenger.
Ambient temps were 12 degrees(EvoMS) vs 9 degrees (GT2RS).
We tried to keep most variables constant as much as possible so we had the same car/tune, same passengers, same fuel quality, same exact road.
This was truly a big surprise.. More to follow"
What I am interested in, is how the 997.2 ics would do against Switzers', Markskis', and Protomotives 4.5-5 inch ICs on an 800 whp GT30 car, full blow through and upgraded piping all the way through (TBs, etc). Do you have that data?
I know that 2 other "mystery ICs" were tested and kept secret. You can PM me the info. But like I said, you cannot convince me that Protos are at 124 degrees. I know that is not true because I have not been able to get mine above 114 degrees.
Quote:
" Another extensive (and pretty conclusive
) test was performed tonight together with my friend skandalis comparing -in same road, similar conditions and same weight- EvoMS and GT2RS ICs. Large VTG car with modded internals (cams, rods, ported heads etc) running 1.55bar boost.We got durametric logs, VBOX figures and also video. The GT2 RS coolers performed so much better than the EvoMS ones that we were both shocked.
Before we post more details we saw an improvement of about 20-25degrees in IATs at 100-300kms (yes you read right).
IATs were getting as high as 59 degrees with the EvoMS ones while with the GT2rs coolers they peaked at 41 degrees at around 250kms/hr and then started dropping to around 36degr at 300kms. We actually saw even lower IATs in some other runs.
in terms of performance;
100-200kms; 5.5 vs 5.0 secs best times
100-300kms; 18.65 vs 16.93 secs
Needless to say numbers above are personal best and i wonder if they could be improved with only 1 passenger.
Ambient temps were 12 degrees(EvoMS) vs 9 degrees (GT2RS).
We tried to keep most variables constant as much as possible so we had the same car/tune, same passengers, same fuel quality, same exact road.
This was truly a big surprise.. More to follow"