Double Clutching....................
#32
06-13-2005 | 11:05 AM
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Life Dies, I said after you release the throttle, that comes before applying the brake.
Worse than that, I've got more but I will wait for the class to catch up to my last comment.
Boy I must be in a "*****" mood today, listen to me.
Worse than that, I've got more but I will wait for the class to catch up to my last comment.
Boy I must be in a "*****" mood today, listen to me.
#33
06-13-2005 | 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by ColorChange
Life Dies, I said after you release the throttle, that comes before applying the brake.
Worse than that, I've got more but I will wait for the class to catch up to my last comment.
Boy I must be in a "*****" mood today, listen to me.
Life Dies, I said after you release the throttle, that comes before applying the brake.
Worse than that, I've got more but I will wait for the class to catch up to my last comment.
Boy I must be in a "*****" mood today, listen to me.
I am trying to do my best to support a healthy discussion here. What is the point of doing that? It's only useful in one gear. With that technique, might as well not use the clutch at all and just rev match into the lower gear.
Don't appreciate your insinuation if that’s what you’re trying to get at there.
#34
06-13-2005 | 11:14 AM
You're SO MONEY, baby!
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Okay, you guys are holding back some toe-healing gems I'm sure, so I'll start...
Broken toe: tape it to next adjacent non-broken toe. Refrain from ballet or tae-kwon-do for 4-6wks.
your turn...
Broken toe: tape it to next adjacent non-broken toe. Refrain from ballet or tae-kwon-do for 4-6wks.
your turn...
#35
06-13-2005 | 11:17 AM
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Dave, you're nasty.
I am just waiting for the tip guys to step forward and put this debate to and end. They're like the ninja's of pedal dancing. Move so fast you didn't even see their feet make the change. Now I need to know how to do that!
I am just waiting for the tip guys to step forward and put this debate to and end. They're like the ninja's of pedal dancing. Move so fast you didn't even see their feet make the change. Now I need to know how to do that!
#36
06-13-2005 | 11:44 AM
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Yes... good point, Tim... that's one of the ways to match the input shaft speed without double-clutching. The potential problem is with this method, you may experience a higher wear-rate or even chipping of the trailing edge of the gear teeth though... not 100% sure, but from my limited knowledge of how the gears engage, this would seem to be a potential issue.
I'm tell'n you guys though... it ain't necessary. There's no point to it, perhaps other than ensuring that your syncros outlive every single part in your next 2 cars. And not to mention, this is still relatively time consuming... in the time that it takes to complete the first 2 steps, you could have completed a heel-toe.
Here's the only way in which I've seen it done in all the vids that I have watched of sports car racing. When done fast, it literally takes but a couple tenth of a second...
Brake...
1) Clutch, Stab throttle with heel (or foot-roll), shift... all this is initiated at the same time...
2) de-clutch...
You can break it down into each sub-steps when written, but really, step one is pretty much done in combination, initiated simutaneously. I wish I could upload my VCD vids online somewhere... it's a thing of beauty how fast all this is done.
I'm tell'n you guys though... it ain't necessary. There's no point to it, perhaps other than ensuring that your syncros outlive every single part in your next 2 cars. And not to mention, this is still relatively time consuming... in the time that it takes to complete the first 2 steps, you could have completed a heel-toe.
Here's the only way in which I've seen it done in all the vids that I have watched of sports car racing. When done fast, it literally takes but a couple tenth of a second...
Brake...
1) Clutch, Stab throttle with heel (or foot-roll), shift... all this is initiated at the same time...
2) de-clutch...
You can break it down into each sub-steps when written, but really, step one is pretty much done in combination, initiated simutaneously. I wish I could upload my VCD vids online somewhere... it's a thing of beauty how fast all this is done.
Originally posted by ColorChange
OK Guys ... Here it comes.
You're all wrong. While Stephan Ti and others are dead correct, you're blip comes in nuetral when the clutch is engaged to spin up the input shaft, and it is debatable whether it is necessary, I still do it. But ... it's wrong.
Here is how the mega quick do it, and you're all going to owe me big for this.
1. release the throttle
2. when the pressure on the tranny goes away, pull the shifter out of gear (notice we have not touched the clutch). The shifter will pop right out of gear if you pull when the tranny load is released.
3. blip the throttle
4. depress the clutch
5. grab the lower gear
Boy do you guys owe me.
Now, if I can just get good enough at it to bring it to the track. The old way of double declutching was hard enough to learn well that it makes the new way even harder to adapt to.
OK Guys ... Here it comes.
You're all wrong. While Stephan Ti and others are dead correct, you're blip comes in nuetral when the clutch is engaged to spin up the input shaft, and it is debatable whether it is necessary, I still do it. But ... it's wrong.
Here is how the mega quick do it, and you're all going to owe me big for this.
1. release the throttle
2. when the pressure on the tranny goes away, pull the shifter out of gear (notice we have not touched the clutch). The shifter will pop right out of gear if you pull when the tranny load is released.
3. blip the throttle
4. depress the clutch
5. grab the lower gear
Boy do you guys owe me.
Now, if I can just get good enough at it to bring it to the track. The old way of double declutching was hard enough to learn well that it makes the new way even harder to adapt to.
#37
06-13-2005 | 11:47 AM
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LOL...
Originally posted by Super D
Okay, you guys are holding back some toe-healing gems I'm sure, so I'll start...
Broken toe: tape it to next adjacent non-broken toe. Refrain from ballet or tae-kwon-do for 4-6wks.
your turn...
Okay, you guys are holding back some toe-healing gems I'm sure, so I'll start...
Broken toe: tape it to next adjacent non-broken toe. Refrain from ballet or tae-kwon-do for 4-6wks.
your turn...
#38
06-13-2005 | 12:00 PM
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I am with Stephen on this.
With respect to your suggestion Tim, since you are pushing in the clutch at some point during the downshifting sequence, why risk nicking the tail ends of the teeth by pulling it out without the clutch? I did say "risk". Why not depress the clutch a moment earlier and avoid any risk?
Now, as a counterpoint, if one were to follow your sequence, however, eliminate the clutch depression altogether, I would buy it as a technique, albeit risky as well. I have practiced downshifting and upshifting sans clutch many times. It takes some concentration and finesse but it is definitely doable. ANd, it does feel like a hot knife through butter. THe problem is that if you lose concentration you nick gears. Considering the cost and effort to pull the trans and repair it, I would rather stick with my normally accepted heel and toe technique.
And yes, I use the side to side method for brake and throttle as opposed to heel and toe. I simply used that term as it is the term that is widely accepted.
As far as heal and toe, well, that is a question for the doctors among us.
With respect to your suggestion Tim, since you are pushing in the clutch at some point during the downshifting sequence, why risk nicking the tail ends of the teeth by pulling it out without the clutch? I did say "risk". Why not depress the clutch a moment earlier and avoid any risk?
Now, as a counterpoint, if one were to follow your sequence, however, eliminate the clutch depression altogether, I would buy it as a technique, albeit risky as well. I have practiced downshifting and upshifting sans clutch many times. It takes some concentration and finesse but it is definitely doable. ANd, it does feel like a hot knife through butter. THe problem is that if you lose concentration you nick gears. Considering the cost and effort to pull the trans and repair it, I would rather stick with my normally accepted heel and toe technique.
And yes, I use the side to side method for brake and throttle as opposed to heel and toe. I simply used that term as it is the term that is widely accepted.
As far as heal and toe, well, that is a question for the doctors among us.
#39
06-13-2005 | 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by StephenTi
Hmm... I highly doubt most of the F&F crowd would know what double clutching is... the old-school big rig drivers, on the other hand, had to use it with the old-school rigs.
Hmm... I highly doubt most of the F&F crowd would know what double clutching is... the old-school big rig drivers, on the other hand, had to use it with the old-school rigs.
i was just kidding man lol
#41
06-13-2005 | 09:29 PM
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LifeDies
I was commenting about me and my tone, not you.
When you pull the car out of gear and the tranny is unloaded, it pops out with ease. If you have to pull hard, you've done it wrong. Try it. It's easy as pie.
Are you ready for stage three yet?
Here's a hint. You have to speed up the input shaft somehow. Hmmm.....
I was commenting about me and my tone, not you.
When you pull the car out of gear and the tranny is unloaded, it pops out with ease. If you have to pull hard, you've done it wrong. Try it. It's easy as pie.
Are you ready for stage three yet?
Here's a hint. You have to speed up the input shaft somehow. Hmmm.....
#44
06-16-2005 | 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by KPV
Re-reading this thread, I want to be clear.....I am absolutely not some scmuck that doesn't know anything about heel and toeing and downshifting.
Re-reading this thread, I want to be clear.....I am absolutely not some scmuck that doesn't know anything about heel and toeing and downshifting.
especially since yur my instructor at The Glen...
#45
06-16-2005 | 04:55 PM
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As per Skip Barber. Anyone want to argue ?
I'll quote: "In shifting gearboxes with synchronizers, the function of the blip is to smooth out clutch engagement after moving to the next lowest gear. Since most racing transmissions do not have synchronizers, the blip not only cushions clutch engagement, it also allows you to synchronize the speeds of the input and output shafts. With your foot on the brake you push in the clutch and shift to neutral from a higher gear. You let the clutch out, and then, still in neutral, you blip the throttle. Since, with the clutch engaged, the motor is directly connected to the input shaft, your blip easily spins up the shaft to the higher RPM. The instant after you blip, push in the clutch and move the gear lever to the next lower gear and let the clutch out. This must happen fast before the extra RPM of the blip falls away."
I'll quote: "In shifting gearboxes with synchronizers, the function of the blip is to smooth out clutch engagement after moving to the next lowest gear. Since most racing transmissions do not have synchronizers, the blip not only cushions clutch engagement, it also allows you to synchronize the speeds of the input and output shafts. With your foot on the brake you push in the clutch and shift to neutral from a higher gear. You let the clutch out, and then, still in neutral, you blip the throttle. Since, with the clutch engaged, the motor is directly connected to the input shaft, your blip easily spins up the shaft to the higher RPM. The instant after you blip, push in the clutch and move the gear lever to the next lower gear and let the clutch out. This must happen fast before the extra RPM of the blip falls away."