tiptronic gear ratio
#1
05-07-2013, 11:44 AM
tiptronic gear ratio
Anybody know the gear ratio for the turbo tiptronic vs the c4 tiptronic vs the c2 tiptronic? Trying to figure out what obstacles if any there are to using a C2 tiptronic in the turbo. My idea is to lose the weight and components of the AWD tranny. Plus the C2 trannys are readily available as compared to the turbo tip. Also wondering if there is a difference between the turbo tip and the C4 tip? I figure as long as the brains (TCU) is compatible the nuts and bolts seem to be the same from eye ball comparison.
#2
05-07-2013, 01:41 PM
It appears I have found the answer!
The A96/10 used in all 2002-2005 C2's the A96/35 used in all 2002-2005 C4 variants and the A96/50 used in all 2000-2005 (keep in mind some 01's were built in 2000) turbo variants have the same gear ratios of 3.60, 2.19, 1.41, 1, and .83:1. Reverse are the same as well yet final drive in Daimler-chrysler versions is 3.37:1 including turbo while for the ZF version 2.89:1. There is ZF version for C2 and C4 versions depending on year and a daimler-chrysler version for C2, C4, and turbos. So really 5 possible trannys! the D-C version is not the only option for the turbo. Also it appears that at least within the like manufactures the transmission types are virtually the same. Its not clear what is different if anything from ZF to DC but the weight are about 50lb difference. From 2002 on the D-C version was used in the turbo and other models. so I guess the 2001 and some 2002 tips are ZF?? I believe my 02 is ZF while others are DC..this also means the 01 and 02-05 have the same gear ratios but a different final drive ratio.
It also seems the TCU is different from ZF to DC. the DC programmed version introduced in 2000-01 for turbos only and later for other models appears to have some 250 shift programs and only 5 for the older TCU . the Turbo TCU is the updated one and therefore used in the ZF tips. It's not clearly stated whether the more advanced TCU can be used with the ZF in non turbo models but it appears it was in turbo models for sure.
In short the DC version TCU is the same for C2, C4, and turbos provided 2002 on in non turbos. And works with the ZF model tip as well. There are 2 possibilities for the turbo. Both DC and ZF depending on build date but the updated TCU runs both. From this I gather that the 2002 or better C2 or C4 DC version could be used with my updated TCU with no issues as they appear all be controlled by the same TCU. It is not clear if the C2 and C4 ZF tip (previous to 2002) mates with the newer TCU. I expect it does if the cable fits as the updated TCU controls both the ZF turbo tip AND the DC turbo tip even tho the final drive ratios are slightly different.
The A96/10 used in all 2002-2005 C2's the A96/35 used in all 2002-2005 C4 variants and the A96/50 used in all 2000-2005 (keep in mind some 01's were built in 2000) turbo variants have the same gear ratios of 3.60, 2.19, 1.41, 1, and .83:1. Reverse are the same as well yet final drive in Daimler-chrysler versions is 3.37:1 including turbo while for the ZF version 2.89:1. There is ZF version for C2 and C4 versions depending on year and a daimler-chrysler version for C2, C4, and turbos. So really 5 possible trannys! the D-C version is not the only option for the turbo. Also it appears that at least within the like manufactures the transmission types are virtually the same. Its not clear what is different if anything from ZF to DC but the weight are about 50lb difference. From 2002 on the D-C version was used in the turbo and other models. so I guess the 2001 and some 2002 tips are ZF?? I believe my 02 is ZF while others are DC..this also means the 01 and 02-05 have the same gear ratios but a different final drive ratio.
It also seems the TCU is different from ZF to DC. the DC programmed version introduced in 2000-01 for turbos only and later for other models appears to have some 250 shift programs and only 5 for the older TCU . the Turbo TCU is the updated one and therefore used in the ZF tips. It's not clearly stated whether the more advanced TCU can be used with the ZF in non turbo models but it appears it was in turbo models for sure.
In short the DC version TCU is the same for C2, C4, and turbos provided 2002 on in non turbos. And works with the ZF model tip as well. There are 2 possibilities for the turbo. Both DC and ZF depending on build date but the updated TCU runs both. From this I gather that the 2002 or better C2 or C4 DC version could be used with my updated TCU with no issues as they appear all be controlled by the same TCU. It is not clear if the C2 and C4 ZF tip (previous to 2002) mates with the newer TCU. I expect it does if the cable fits as the updated TCU controls both the ZF turbo tip AND the DC turbo tip even tho the final drive ratios are slightly different.
Last edited by pumptech; 05-07-2013 at 01:46 PM.
#3
05-07-2013, 02:09 PM
#5
05-07-2013, 04:22 PM
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Good info!! Did you decide if you are going to have your tranny beefed up yet? If so who you going to use?
#7
05-07-2013, 06:55 PM
I'm gonna do it, just not sure of the route. It seems so far that I could use a C2 or C4 or regular turbo tip and as long as its the DC variety it seems the TCU will work with no problem. It also seems that even the ZF model will work with the TCU but I'm not totally convinced yet on that.
I'd like to use a C2 and upgrade with the clutches, valve body, TC, and any other little tricks. I'd also like to do it myself with a little guidance from some more inclined friends. Losing the AWD gearbox and going to this smaller tip should shed a good 150lbs. Not to mention nobody has done this and may be a rewarding experiment....or an expensive disaster!
I'd like to use a C2 and upgrade with the clutches, valve body, TC, and any other little tricks. I'd also like to do it myself with a little guidance from some more inclined friends. Losing the AWD gearbox and going to this smaller tip should shed a good 150lbs. Not to mention nobody has done this and may be a rewarding experiment....or an expensive disaster!
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#9
05-07-2013, 11:33 PM
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...rt-numbrs.html
I was looking for the same info with the intent of potentialy using a c4 on a turbo 2001.
I was looking for the same info with the intent of potentialy using a c4 on a turbo 2001.
#10
05-08-2013, 05:28 AM
Regarding the TCU...it appears that no matter what style you have, ZF or DC, the newest TCU will work. In fact, the newest part numbers 996.618.180.04 is all you can get. This appears to be the same regardless C2, C4, or turbo. So as long as the C2 and C4 nuts and bolts line up, I see no problem. You can always fab a new mount. Still working on starter location but that may not be a deal ender either.
#11
06-09-2013, 07:44 PM
After more looking around I need to correct a previous idea. there is only the DC version for the turbo tip and no ZF. Also the computers are different at least in part number from the c2, c4, and turbo of appropriate years. However the valve body is identical for years 1998-2009 regardless of turbo or natural aspirated. So.....I speculate that the turbo tcu will work with any of the DC version tips including c2 and c4 tips. It may be worth the trouble to have it sent to MKB to have it flashed for tor the 1200 newton upgrade although many getting trannies built in the states are not getting TCU flashes. Even those getting VB upgrades and using blue top solenoids don't seem to require a flash. So if you upgrade the tranny internally it shouldn't change the TCU's communication inputs or outputs. So I don't expect that using a c2 or c4 tranny would be an issue regarding the tcu. The tcu doesn't know if upgraded clutches have been used or not. It really just communicates with the VB. the final drive ratio is slightly different in C2 and 4 tips so there "might" be a MPH disconnect that I have no idea how to fix. The better ratio in the regular tip of 3.37:1 should be a nice kick in the pants and help the laggy turbo (2.89:1) get off the line and into the power band much sooner! But it will certainly reduce top speed and wouldn't be advised for the mile geeks!
One other problems is the flex plate and therefore TC which has a different bolt pattern from turbo to c2/4. It's like 9 vs 8 bolt holes. Not a problem either as the next problem and solution solves that.
The starter is in a totally different location on the c2/4 compared to turbo. In the c2/4 it's mounted on the block behind alternator, is a different starter, and the business end faces front of car. The turbo tip starter is integrated into the bell housing as in most other cars and business end faces rear of car. Solution would be to use the turbo bell housing with the c2/4 tip. Also solves the flex plate and any TC fitment problems.
Last problem has simple solution, c2/4 tip has no tranny cooler. Simple fix. Add one or even two.
It also appears that from a glance, although I have not looked far into it, that the 997 tips c2/4/turbo all have a compatible rear section (the actual meat part) but would still require using the 996 turbo bell housing to solve any starter, flex plate, TC issues. Tho to my knowledge the 997 turbo TC is the same. Just food for thought.
I still can't find what the C2 tip weighs although I do know the turbo tip is about 120-125kg or 275ish pounds. I'd bet my *** the C2 tip weighs 20-40lbs less.
That's where I'm at.
One other problems is the flex plate and therefore TC which has a different bolt pattern from turbo to c2/4. It's like 9 vs 8 bolt holes. Not a problem either as the next problem and solution solves that.
The starter is in a totally different location on the c2/4 compared to turbo. In the c2/4 it's mounted on the block behind alternator, is a different starter, and the business end faces front of car. The turbo tip starter is integrated into the bell housing as in most other cars and business end faces rear of car. Solution would be to use the turbo bell housing with the c2/4 tip. Also solves the flex plate and any TC fitment problems.
Last problem has simple solution, c2/4 tip has no tranny cooler. Simple fix. Add one or even two.
It also appears that from a glance, although I have not looked far into it, that the 997 tips c2/4/turbo all have a compatible rear section (the actual meat part) but would still require using the 996 turbo bell housing to solve any starter, flex plate, TC issues. Tho to my knowledge the 997 turbo TC is the same. Just food for thought.
I still can't find what the C2 tip weighs although I do know the turbo tip is about 120-125kg or 275ish pounds. I'd bet my *** the C2 tip weighs 20-40lbs less.
That's where I'm at.