Cartronic Sequential Shifter
#1
12-24-2003, 10:36 PM
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 62
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Cartronic Sequential Shifter
Has anyone tried the Cartronic sequential shifter for the 996? Looks very cool... if it works and is reliable. Unlike "true" sequential shifters, it does require use of the clutch for up and down shifts. But, the motion is sequential rather than the stock H pattern.
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/p...seqshift_e.pdf
I've really enjoyed sequential shifters on the track (in karts), but was very disappointed with the streetability of the BMW system. The Cartronic system may be just the ticket for the street where you can use the clutch to dampen the shifting (whereas the BMW computer tries, not terribly successfully, to dampen the shift with electronics).
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/p...seqshift_e.pdf
I've really enjoyed sequential shifters on the track (in karts), but was very disappointed with the streetability of the BMW system. The Cartronic system may be just the ticket for the street where you can use the clutch to dampen the shifting (whereas the BMW computer tries, not terribly successfully, to dampen the shift with electronics).
Last edited by racer63; 12-24-2003 at 10:38 PM.
I've been seriously giving it consideration.
#3
12-25-2003, 07:48 AM
why would you want this? you still have to use the clutch so the gear changes will be no quicker. It will limit the changes you can make. It will weigh more than the stock shifter. It has more moving parts that can and probably will break. I believe that there is a company that makes a true sequential gearbox for the TTs. That would be something to consider although very expensive. This is just a gimmic with no real upside.
-Steve
-Steve
#5
12-25-2003, 08:28 AM
well i have raced cars and bikes with true sequentials. But no, i do not have experience with this unit. However, anyone familiar with transmissions will see that this does not offer a major advantage.
The one major advantage that it does offer is that it eliminates the chance for a costly mis-shift. If you are a driver that is prone to miss shifts or is REALLY worried about shifting from 5th to 2nd or something like that then maybe it would be worth it.
Otherwise i don't see how that sole benefit would outweigh the cost, weight, potential lack of reliability, and PITA of not being able to skip gears on the street.
What benefit were you hoping to get from it??
-Steve
The one major advantage that it does offer is that it eliminates the chance for a costly mis-shift. If you are a driver that is prone to miss shifts or is REALLY worried about shifting from 5th to 2nd or something like that then maybe it would be worth it.
Otherwise i don't see how that sole benefit would outweigh the cost, weight, potential lack of reliability, and PITA of not being able to skip gears on the street.
What benefit were you hoping to get from it??
-Steve
#6
12-25-2003, 08:31 AM
here's a thread that was posted on this a while ago. i posted a decent tech summary of the different gearbox types.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ght=sequential
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ght=sequential
#7
12-25-2003, 08:53 AM
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 62
Posts: 839
Rep Power: 55
Originally posted by offroadr35
why would you want this? you still have to use the clutch so the gear changes will be no quicker. It will limit the changes you can make. It will weigh more than the stock shifter. It has more moving parts that can and probably will break. I believe that there is a company that makes a true sequential gearbox for the TTs. That would be something to consider although very expensive. This is just a gimmic with no real upside.
-Steve
why would you want this? you still have to use the clutch so the gear changes will be no quicker. It will limit the changes you can make. It will weigh more than the stock shifter. It has more moving parts that can and probably will break. I believe that there is a company that makes a true sequential gearbox for the TTs. That would be something to consider although very expensive. This is just a gimmic with no real upside.
-Steve
It's mainly a driving experience thing. The look and feel of the car is as important to me as the performance of the car. So, even if the performance is no better, if I like the feel, it may be worth it.
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#9
12-25-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by cjv
Steve,
I am looking for it to make my car quicker.
Steve,
I am looking for it to make my car quicker.
#11
12-25-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by rmrmd1956
offroadr35
How does the ENZO gearbox work?
offroadr35
How does the ENZO gearbox work?
Auto: torque converter, planetary gears
Normal manual: usually helical cut gears, shifted in an H-pattern, can shift from 1st-4th or any other combination. Has a clutch that is operated by depressing a pedal.
True Sequential gearbox: almost always straight cut gears. gears have to be selected by going up one or down one: 1-2-3-4-5-6 and back down. There is no clutch needed to change gears although without some other provision you do need a clutch to start off. Most motorcycle gearboxes are sequential boxes. The disadvantages in a street car are that they are very difficult (expensive) to make so that they can deal with lots of torque, also the straight cut gears are very loud and not smooth.
This FVD shifter: Everything is the same as the normal manual but it shifts through the gears sequentially. So there is still the same need for a clutch, just instead of changing the gear from 4-5 going through neutral you will just press up on the shifter. The benefit of this is that it is it eliminates the possibility of selecting the wrong gear, something which has already taken out one Carrera GT.
SMG/F1 style tranny: Basically the same as a normal box with this FVD shifter except the clutch is controlled by a computer.
This is just the basics but hopefully it helps clear up some confusion.
Normal manual: usually helical cut gears, shifted in an H-pattern, can shift from 1st-4th or any other combination. Has a clutch that is operated by depressing a pedal.
True Sequential gearbox: almost always straight cut gears. gears have to be selected by going up one or down one: 1-2-3-4-5-6 and back down. There is no clutch needed to change gears although without some other provision you do need a clutch to start off. Most motorcycle gearboxes are sequential boxes. The disadvantages in a street car are that they are very difficult (expensive) to make so that they can deal with lots of torque, also the straight cut gears are very loud and not smooth.
This FVD shifter: Everything is the same as the normal manual but it shifts through the gears sequentially. So there is still the same need for a clutch, just instead of changing the gear from 4-5 going through neutral you will just press up on the shifter. The benefit of this is that it is it eliminates the possibility of selecting the wrong gear, something which has already taken out one Carrera GT.
SMG/F1 style tranny: Basically the same as a normal box with this FVD shifter except the clutch is controlled by a computer.
This is just the basics but hopefully it helps clear up some confusion.
-Steve
#12
12-25-2003, 02:54 PM
Thanks,
found it in the intromanual
f1 transmission
and gearbox
In the F140 project, the rear
gearbox is coupled directly to the
engine by an element that
incorporates the engine oil tank, the
bevel gear pair, and the self-locking
differential (lock percentage: 30 on
thrust and 55 on release). The
project was designed for extremely
sporty performance and adopts
triple cone synchronisers on all six
speeds (diameter of 100 mm on the synchronisers of 1st and 2nd, and 76 mm on the others).
Lubrication is forced, with a large pump and lower oil level to minimise losses due to
ventilation/shaking.
The architecture with three bearings guarantees optimal gear train coupling even at high torque.
The twin plate clutch with aluminium housing and a diameter of 215 mm also speeds up engine
dynamics and synchronisation.
In line with the car’s performance targets, the gearbox unit was developed only in a Formula 1
version. Gear changes are entrusted entirely to an electrohydraulic system which activates the
gearbox and clutch. Gear change control is managed electronically and activated by paddles
positioned behind the steering wheel, modifying engine torque and vehicle dynamics.
The number one goal of the Enzo project was to cut gear change times (down to 150
milliseconds) in the interests of extremely sporty use, thanks in part to a new control strategy
and further re.nements which were less in.uenced by concessions to comfort, as demanded by
the spirit of the car.
found it in the intromanual
f1 transmission
and gearbox
In the F140 project, the rear
gearbox is coupled directly to the
engine by an element that
incorporates the engine oil tank, the
bevel gear pair, and the self-locking
differential (lock percentage: 30 on
thrust and 55 on release). The
project was designed for extremely
sporty performance and adopts
triple cone synchronisers on all six
speeds (diameter of 100 mm on the synchronisers of 1st and 2nd, and 76 mm on the others).
Lubrication is forced, with a large pump and lower oil level to minimise losses due to
ventilation/shaking.
The architecture with three bearings guarantees optimal gear train coupling even at high torque.
The twin plate clutch with aluminium housing and a diameter of 215 mm also speeds up engine
dynamics and synchronisation.
In line with the car’s performance targets, the gearbox unit was developed only in a Formula 1
version. Gear changes are entrusted entirely to an electrohydraulic system which activates the
gearbox and clutch. Gear change control is managed electronically and activated by paddles
positioned behind the steering wheel, modifying engine torque and vehicle dynamics.
The number one goal of the Enzo project was to cut gear change times (down to 150
milliseconds) in the interests of extremely sporty use, thanks in part to a new control strategy
and further re.nements which were less in.uenced by concessions to comfort, as demanded by
the spirit of the car.
#13
12-25-2003, 03:25 PM
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Age: 62
Posts: 839
Rep Power: 55
Originally posted by offroadr35
from the other thread i linked to;
the enzo uses the SMG/F1 style to the best of my knowledge. If you were to take apart the transmission it would look just like any other manual tranny. It's just that the shifter and clutch are controlled by a computer that is controlled by the wheel paddles.
-Steve
from the other thread i linked to;
the enzo uses the SMG/F1 style to the best of my knowledge. If you were to take apart the transmission it would look just like any other manual tranny. It's just that the shifter and clutch are controlled by a computer that is controlled by the wheel paddles.
-Steve
So, for a streetable sequential, the Cartronic system might work well. Partial throttle shifts should be fine since you can dampen the shift with the clutch as you would with the stock shifter. Multigear downshifts could be slower, depending on your technique. But, then again, how many multigear downshifts do you actually do on the street? For that matter, in ten years of racing, I can only think of one track where I have been required to do multigear downshifts, Buttonwillow (and only certain configurations).
Lastly, the SMG type system that McKenna uses could shave maybe a couple of tenths for a cost somewhere in the five figures (not the 10s either if I had to bet). There much cheaper and more streetable ways of getting a couple of tenths. Also, I'm not sure why I need a couple of tenths at this point. I almost never see a car as quick as mine on the street. And I have never actually come up to a stop light at the same time as a one of those cars... They're always headed the opposite direction in traffic.
#15
12-25-2003, 03:35 PM
few things racer, first of all the mckenna system is a sequential gearbox, not an smg. Second, i agree, i hate the SMG and F1 shifters. They don't shift very well on the street, plus i just love the feeling of changing my own gears. They are, however, faster than a human being ever could be. They make up most of this speed in how fast they modulate the clutch, NOT how fast they change the gears. That's why this cartronic thing only really changes the wrong half of the equation. It might be something that is cool, but it is totally just a gimmic. That's not to say there is anything wrong with gimmics though...