RWD Conversion Complete...one word...AWESOME!!!
#256
08-01-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by oak
I have seen the video. so what? like I said similar isn't the same. there isn't one rear engined porsche in the D1 series of all the top drifters. they can choose any vehicle and not one porsche. why?
like I said, I would love to meet up with you anytime to witness your sideway prowness. maybe you can teach me a few things. I would to learn. pm me and I will meet up with you anytime. and we can do some friendly comparisons.
like I said, I would love to meet up with you anytime to witness your sideway prowness. maybe you can teach me a few things. I would to learn. pm me and I will meet up with you anytime. and we can do some friendly comparisons.
But, I do very much enjoy using the gas pedal to drive around turns.
Just as I do very much enjoy driving cars without electronics on the track so that when I nailed the apex, I know that it's all me.
To do these two simple things above in the Turbo, the AWD and PSM must go.
Let me see what I can do about timing...
#258
08-01-2007, 04:23 PM
Hey.... with 18+ pages of excellent commentary I must mention the head mechanic at Barrier Porsche in Washginton. He did suggest that for MOST of us, that the GT-2 format was a "widow maker" just because most people push more power than they can actually drive which causes the problems (spinning out) for a lot of us, including my times at the track. 2WD is really tricky relative to PSM assisted ABS assisted 4 Wheel Drive. The factory-4WD cars make you feel like a hero. GT-2 / GT-700/850 setups with 500-700+ horsepower and more are not for ametures (like me for instance) and I have driven a TON of hot machinery, but hell, relative to most of the full racecar drivers, I know that I am complete TOAST.
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
Last edited by SpeedYellow; 08-01-2007 at 04:26 PM.
#259
08-01-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by oak
ok, pm me when you are ready to show me. Im ready anytime.
#260
08-01-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by oak
that particular car is a 993 based GT2. they have owned for quite some time the 993 GT2 wasn't available here in the states. it's strictly a track vehicle. it's not in the D1 series where all the premiere drifters compete.
Ahhhh, cool. That sounds like a sweet ride!
I'd love to see it drifting with the Japanese cars and now Mustangs and Vipers, etc... I was under the impression that there was a Porsche currently being developed to drift in the premiere class of D1 but again, it's heresay so I could be completely mislead...
#261
08-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by oak
similar is not the same. do the handle they same? you should know you have owned both. the list is long in the differences. if the GT2 is perfect for going sideways why isn't there a single rear engined car in the D1 series? out of all the cars they can choose why don't you see a single porsche?
#263
08-01-2007, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by SpeedYellow
Hey.... with 18+ pages of excellent commentary I must mention the head mechanic at Barrier Porsche in Washginton. He did suggest that for MOST of us, that the GT-2 format was a "widow maker" just because most people push more power than they can actually drive which causes the problems (spinning out) for a lot of us, including my times at the track. 2WD is really tricky relative to PSM assisted ABS assisted 4 Wheel Drive. The factory-4WD cars make you feel like a hero. GT-2 / GT-700/850 setups with 500-700+ horsepower and more are not for ametures (like me for instance) and I have driven a TON of hot machinery, but hell, relative to most of the full racecar drivers, I know that I am complete TOAST.
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
#264
08-01-2007, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by SpeedYellow
Hey.... with 18+ pages of excellent commentary I must mention the head mechanic at Barrier Porsche in Washginton. He did suggest that for MOST of us, that the GT-2 format was a "widow maker" just because most people push more power than they can actually drive which causes the problems (spinning out) for a lot of us, including my times at the track. 2WD is really tricky relative to PSM assisted ABS assisted 4 Wheel Drive. The factory-4WD cars make you feel like a hero. GT-2 / GT-700/850 setups with 500-700+ horsepower and more are not for ametures (like me for instance) and I have driven a TON of hot machinery, but hell, relative to most of the full racecar drivers, I know that I am complete TOAST.
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
Back to the 2WD vs. 4WD stuff... Fordahl, Porche facotory people have told me as well, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the transmission...
WHY do people go to 2WD on these cars for high horsepower (GT) and endurance racing? One reason.... HEEEEEAT...
Quote: "With a LSD and vicsous coupling device such as the 4WD Porsche, the REAR wheels (in racing applicaitons) are consistently out-rotating and out-spinning the front wheels which creates a constant drag on BOTH the front differential and the central torque converter unit. After a few hours of this kind of activity, the transmission fluid, the differential, and the clutch plates within are HOT and you get zero assist from the front wheels under these circumstances anyway." ~ End of story.
Now if the 997TT is a better system that has 100% to the rear all of the time unless absolutely necessary, we have another discussion, but for now, 2WD for all other Porsches would appear the way to go for most all high-hosepower applications where continuous high-speed driving (full-on multi-hour racing) is involved.
And YES.... it's really run to be able to drive with my right foot....
#266
08-01-2007, 04:43 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MPLS, MN USA
Age: 63
Posts: 5,710
Rep Power: 464 
I put in steel synchros in my tranny when it was rebuilt.
After discussions/emails with Divexxtreme,Markski,Jean and Todd
I decided that I would keep mine all-wheel drive with my new found
"mad power". I am 100% certain I would have totalled my car at
Road America at the lovely "kink" on one of my laps...PSM saved my
ametuer *** and for that I am thankful!
To each his own, it depends on how you want to use the car!
MK
After discussions/emails with Divexxtreme,Markski,Jean and Todd
I decided that I would keep mine all-wheel drive with my new found
"mad power". I am 100% certain I would have totalled my car at
Road America at the lovely "kink" on one of my laps...PSM saved my
ametuer *** and for that I am thankful!
To each his own, it depends on how you want to use the car!
MK
#267
08-01-2007, 04:45 PM
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Irvine/Las Vegas
Age: 49
Posts: 1,127
Rep Power: 65
Originally Posted by Kato
I would seriously love to join you guys and hopefully learn a few things and have a good time. Why not come out to a track day to have some fun? The OC PCA is supposedly running at Streets in mid September (17th I think?). I'll be running in an autocross at El Toro on August 12th as well if anybody wants to join!
#268
08-01-2007, 05:45 PM
Basic Sponsor
here is some usefull hardcore info about the pros and cons of going RWD...
Pros:
Less rotating mass
Less inertia
Less weight
Better acceleration
Car feels nimbler without the extra weight.
Cons:
Less traction in sub-optimal conditions where the coefficient of
friction between the tires/road are bad, rain, snow, mud, rocks, bad
tires...
Think about it this way...
F=uN, or the force required to slide the tire, or break traction =
the coefficient of friction x the Normal force downward on the tire...
So, as long as there's weight on the front end, there's additional
traction to be had from the front tires.
However, in my case, the power Im producing will lift the front end so much that the weight of the car is all on the rears, or at least a very high
percentage of it.
Thus, without any weight on the front end, they produce no traction
anyhow under that kind of acceleration.
Or, there's 8 ft. between the fronts and the rears.
When we corner weight a 996tt, there's about 1000 lbs/ea. On the
rear tires, and about 800 lbs/ea. On the fronts. So, the front tires have
1600lbs on them.
8ft x 1600lbs = 12,800 ftlbs of torque required to lift the nose.
1st gear 42/11 = 3.818
2nd gear 43/21 = 2.0476
Final drive 31/9 = 3.4444
There's a 13.15/1 reduction in the transmission in 1st gear .
However, I am be making about 866.7 lbsft of torque x
13.15 = 11,397.16... 12,800 - 11,397.16 = 1402.83... 1402.83/8 = 175.354 for weight left on the front end, then that /2 = 87.67 on each tire.
Now this is just raw acceleration, assuming you're not actually
launching the car very hard and just standing on it. With some rev's and a
dropped clutch, it's coming up...
Now, this is all assuming 100% connection from the front/rear. But
these things only have a 10% viscous coupling, so even at 866.7lbs/ft of
torque, you're getting 86.67lbs/ft of torque at the front end with the
10%... And that about a foot out on a tire will provide about 86lbs of
forward thrust. Now, let's say a really sticky tire has a 1.2 coefficient of
friction.
So, F=uN, for Force required to slip the tire = 1.2 x 87lbs of
weight left in my example = 105.212... So, even with sticky
tires, a 10% viscous coupling and all that fun stuff, the fronts still will
not have traction due to the lift in the front.
I guess what I'm saying is without sticky tires, 2wd or 4wd you're
not going to have much traction in the lower gears with this kind of power.
You just need sticky tires.
markski
Pros:
Less rotating mass
Less inertia
Less weight
Better acceleration
Car feels nimbler without the extra weight.
Cons:
Less traction in sub-optimal conditions where the coefficient of
friction between the tires/road are bad, rain, snow, mud, rocks, bad
tires...
Think about it this way...
F=uN, or the force required to slide the tire, or break traction =
the coefficient of friction x the Normal force downward on the tire...
So, as long as there's weight on the front end, there's additional
traction to be had from the front tires.
However, in my case, the power Im producing will lift the front end so much that the weight of the car is all on the rears, or at least a very high
percentage of it.
Thus, without any weight on the front end, they produce no traction
anyhow under that kind of acceleration.
Or, there's 8 ft. between the fronts and the rears.
When we corner weight a 996tt, there's about 1000 lbs/ea. On the
rear tires, and about 800 lbs/ea. On the fronts. So, the front tires have
1600lbs on them.
8ft x 1600lbs = 12,800 ftlbs of torque required to lift the nose.
1st gear 42/11 = 3.818
2nd gear 43/21 = 2.0476
Final drive 31/9 = 3.4444
There's a 13.15/1 reduction in the transmission in 1st gear .
However, I am be making about 866.7 lbsft of torque x
13.15 = 11,397.16... 12,800 - 11,397.16 = 1402.83... 1402.83/8 = 175.354 for weight left on the front end, then that /2 = 87.67 on each tire.
Now this is just raw acceleration, assuming you're not actually
launching the car very hard and just standing on it. With some rev's and a
dropped clutch, it's coming up...
Now, this is all assuming 100% connection from the front/rear. But
these things only have a 10% viscous coupling, so even at 866.7lbs/ft of
torque, you're getting 86.67lbs/ft of torque at the front end with the
10%... And that about a foot out on a tire will provide about 86lbs of
forward thrust. Now, let's say a really sticky tire has a 1.2 coefficient of
friction.
So, F=uN, for Force required to slip the tire = 1.2 x 87lbs of
weight left in my example = 105.212... So, even with sticky
tires, a 10% viscous coupling and all that fun stuff, the fronts still will
not have traction due to the lift in the front.
I guess what I'm saying is without sticky tires, 2wd or 4wd you're
not going to have much traction in the lower gears with this kind of power.
You just need sticky tires.
markski
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
#269
08-01-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by oak
really?! ah shucks. I need to do a 2wd conversion asap. 
sharky, did you do the 2wd conversion?
sharky, did you do the 2wd conversion?
#270
08-01-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by sharkster
you mean change the uprights over, change the rest of the geometry and suspension set up as well as brakes to the GT2? All for spin city? Then there's PSM and the ECU... it's just not the same as the GT2s ECU. The whole thing seems a bit too dangerous for my liking to do properly. I must be a chicken