Exhaust Dilemma!! Techart/Fabspeed/GHL??
#16
07-27-2006, 12:13 PM
I have the Fabspeed, perfect ton across the RPM board... If you want a sound clip of mine, email me 
#17
07-27-2006, 01:49 PM
Joe,
You are entitled to your opinions obviously, and you certainly have some strong ones!
However, there are a whole bunch of incorrect "facts" in your statement that you seem prone to repeating despite having been corrected in the past:
Our system has always used 14 and 16 gauge stainless T304 tubing and sheet metal. And I am pretty sure all the European systems are, too, if memory serves correctly. This is the norm, rather than the exception, I have to say.
Once again, the "all other" and "everyone else" blanket statements that you make come off impressive, but are just factually wrong. Most of your competitors, including us, use at least 2.5" tubing, and in fact we use an even larger diameter perforated structure inside our 996TT mufflers than 2.5".
Again, a blanket statement made to impress potential customers, but plain wrong.
Take a look at the picture of our system on the preceeding page and on our website. See how many pieces it is comprised of? That was intentional for fine tuning tip adjustment, cat delete, and crash replacement modularity.
Your comments about resonance are debatable, as most of the reports about aftermarket exhaust resonance come from the users themselves, which is all readily viewable online. It's not the manufacturers/retailers of these systems that have created this impression, it comes directly from the users.
And sometimes the complaints from users get so bad, that retailers switch brands...
Just my 2 cents here as a manufacturer of a competing product built entirely in house at our Willow Grove, PA facility.
Thanks for reading.
You are entitled to your opinions obviously, and you certainly have some strong ones!
However, there are a whole bunch of incorrect "facts" in your statement that you seem prone to repeating despite having been corrected in the past:
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
Fabspeed Motorsports manufacturers in the USA utilizing 14 guage T304 stainless steel with imported sports racing catalytic converters-- everyone else uses 18 guage to 20 guage thin wall stainless.
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
2) Fabspeed uses 63.5mm 2.5" perforated cores all the way through the system.......all other competitors use smaller tubing and therefore restrict exhaust flow and increase backpressure and therefore lose power.
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
All other exhaust competing exhaust systems are welded together in 1 piece and not interchangeable and if damage occurs you cant repair nor replace a part or component.
Take a look at the picture of our system on the preceeding page and on our website. See how many pieces it is comprised of? That was intentional for fine tuning tip adjustment, cat delete, and crash replacement modularity.
Your comments about resonance are debatable, as most of the reports about aftermarket exhaust resonance come from the users themselves, which is all readily viewable online. It's not the manufacturers/retailers of these systems that have created this impression, it comes directly from the users.
And sometimes the complaints from users get so bad, that retailers switch brands...
Just my 2 cents here as a manufacturer of a competing product built entirely in house at our Willow Grove, PA facility.
Thanks for reading.
#19
07-27-2006, 03:12 PM
I must had as a user that I bought a GHL motorsport exhaust from the Gemballa representative in the US with guarantee it wouldn't be too loud and it wouldn't resonate. Well, it was money thrown out of the window! It was LOUD and would resonate to a point I was embarassed in taking anyone in the car. I eventually bought an Europipe Quiet and although there's a slight increase in noise around 2500 (just as the OEM one) I certainly can't call it resonance... just my opinion.
#20
07-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Former Vendor
Todd
My statements are essentially correct. As BOB DOLE would say......" You know I know and the AMERICAN people know it"!
No one can bend up 14 guage T304SS on a sheetmetal brake and basic shear like Kenny McNeil set you guys up several years ago in Chesnut Hill and "hold it all together with vise grips and weld it all up while the metal is trying to spring back.
The Germans and B&B and most others just bend up light guage T304SS sheet in a pressbrake or sheetmetal brake like HVAC ductwork. Your AWE Tuning still employs this method of manufacturing as you were TAUGHT that method by Kenny McNeil.........who worked and also TAUGHT the same faulty procedures to GHL Motosrports..........before that Kenny's employment was Turbo Performance center Mike Levitas.......and prior to that Kenny BOY was at B&B fabrication prior to that and etc. AWE employed the human hockey puck of fabrication. Look over your mufflers they look like SQUARE BOXES ........square is not strong and is weak.........always has and always will be weak.
My facts are correct and your systems is modular NOW and has "Evolved" to modular as the tips are other parts didnt fit great. Yes you eveloved into modular so you can run catbypass pipes..........you have seen many of my products and logically your boys over there........."said we should do that too!"
You like to repeatedly stress that AWE Tuning is made in house. Now that is a fallacy of some kind ( is AWE a steel minimill) and you really shouldnt even want to do that.........why?
Fabspeed Motorsports does not make all their components IN HOUSE and NEVER WILL because that will make our EXHAUST systems , Airintakes and or anyone else products inferior.
I have invested in subcontractors that over $25,000,000.00 in equipment like multiple CNC mandrel benders that bend up to 1:1 radii...............water jet cutting and laser cutting for no warpage and better FLAT Flanges.
You cant do that inhouse at AWE nor does any other exhaust tuner or manufacturer. I have developed and bought the required tooling for all my muffler cases that are stamped/formed and stress relieved. This is the CORRECT engineered ISO way to make mufflers.
AWE & B&B does even come close to that technology with hand built low volume production.
Fabspeed Motorsports INVESTED in F1 style investment cast T304SS high velocity merge collectors........better than anything in terms of strentgh/flow and weight. Dont tell me your boys are making up collectors by hand for less power and lousy visual apprearance.
Look over my headers everyone reading this post and or any other PORSCHE message board. Fabspeed 1 peice CNC mandrel bent headers REQUIRE no extra welds all over the place like "spaghetti" .........no welds are better than many welds all day long. AWE headers are all splced together as are B&B, GHL Cargraphic and everyone elses headers...........Fabspeed headers are 1 piece works of ART that will outflow and outlast any other brands.
Kenny McNeils AWE tuning 996TT exhaust made less power than Fabspeed Motorsports............if your systems made more and OR any system made more power then everyone would have mentioned it.
Joe Fabiani
President & CEO
Fabspeed Motorsports
www.fabspeed.com
info@fabspeed.com
My statements are essentially correct. As BOB DOLE would say......" You know I know and the AMERICAN people know it"!
No one can bend up 14 guage T304SS on a sheetmetal brake and basic shear like Kenny McNeil set you guys up several years ago in Chesnut Hill and "hold it all together with vise grips and weld it all up while the metal is trying to spring back.
The Germans and B&B and most others just bend up light guage T304SS sheet in a pressbrake or sheetmetal brake like HVAC ductwork. Your AWE Tuning still employs this method of manufacturing as you were TAUGHT that method by Kenny McNeil.........who worked and also TAUGHT the same faulty procedures to GHL Motosrports..........before that Kenny's employment was Turbo Performance center Mike Levitas.......and prior to that Kenny BOY was at B&B fabrication prior to that and etc. AWE employed the human hockey puck of fabrication. Look over your mufflers they look like SQUARE BOXES ........square is not strong and is weak.........always has and always will be weak.
My facts are correct and your systems is modular NOW and has "Evolved" to modular as the tips are other parts didnt fit great. Yes you eveloved into modular so you can run catbypass pipes..........you have seen many of my products and logically your boys over there........."said we should do that too!"
You like to repeatedly stress that AWE Tuning is made in house. Now that is a fallacy of some kind ( is AWE a steel minimill) and you really shouldnt even want to do that.........why?
Fabspeed Motorsports does not make all their components IN HOUSE and NEVER WILL because that will make our EXHAUST systems , Airintakes and or anyone else products inferior.
I have invested in subcontractors that over $25,000,000.00 in equipment like multiple CNC mandrel benders that bend up to 1:1 radii...............water jet cutting and laser cutting for no warpage and better FLAT Flanges.
You cant do that inhouse at AWE nor does any other exhaust tuner or manufacturer. I have developed and bought the required tooling for all my muffler cases that are stamped/formed and stress relieved. This is the CORRECT engineered ISO way to make mufflers.
AWE & B&B does even come close to that technology with hand built low volume production.
Fabspeed Motorsports INVESTED in F1 style investment cast T304SS high velocity merge collectors........better than anything in terms of strentgh/flow and weight. Dont tell me your boys are making up collectors by hand for less power and lousy visual apprearance.
Look over my headers everyone reading this post and or any other PORSCHE message board. Fabspeed 1 peice CNC mandrel bent headers REQUIRE no extra welds all over the place like "spaghetti" .........no welds are better than many welds all day long. AWE headers are all splced together as are B&B, GHL Cargraphic and everyone elses headers...........Fabspeed headers are 1 piece works of ART that will outflow and outlast any other brands.
Kenny McNeils AWE tuning 996TT exhaust made less power than Fabspeed Motorsports............if your systems made more and OR any system made more power then everyone would have mentioned it.
Joe Fabiani
President & CEO
Fabspeed Motorsports
www.fabspeed.com
info@fabspeed.com
Last edited by Fabspeed Motorsport; 10-29-2007 at 10:44 AM.
#21
07-27-2006, 05:49 PM
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 110
Rep Power: 0 
I'm not sure what I started here with this thread, but I just wanted some simple advice on what exhaust would be best for my car.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
Last edited by charleysung; 07-27-2006 at 06:03 PM.
#22
07-27-2006, 05:59 PM
Joe,
Our systems are extensively stress relieved, utilizing press brake tooling made in house, in order to relieve that spring back tension that you correctly refer to (we discovered that issue years ago).
Our boxes are square on the 996TT system for appearance sake. Notice that our 997 and 996 muffler are round. We have the ability to do either.
Kenny has been gone from our facility for many years, and we have changed our manufacturing methods not only to improve our quality but to also cope with hugely increased demand for our products. His methods had to be abandoned years ago simply because they were not suited to higher volume quality manufacturing.
Our 996TT system has been modular since day one of its release to the public. The only change we implemented early on was the elimination of the Aeroquip ball joint at the inlet of the muffler in favor of a simple slip joint. There really was no benefit to having that ball joint there afterall.
We have always had separate cat sections, separate mufflers, and separate tailpipe sections.
Joe, we, too, use subcontrators when feasible, such as waterjet cutting our muffler end caps and some flanges. This is a low risk component that does not have a financial benefit to bring in house yet. We are not blind to the benefits of using subcontractors.
However, there is a large difference, in my opinion, between subcontracting components and subcontracting the entire product.
We choose not to subcontract the entire product and this is what we do in house:
We design our own systems by physically fitting on cars and with Solidworks CAD.
We prototype our own systems on our prototype racks.
We dyno test our own systems on our Mustang AWD chassis dyno.
We mandrel bend, assemble, press form, CNC cut, and TIG weld many components and the final products.
We do all of the above because we have learned that it gives us much better control over the final product vs having someone else do it all for us. We have found that tying complex components of our products to subcontractors seriously hampers the critical development phase, and in some cases financially prevents major changes to the product when changes are discovered to be necessary. It takes away a very important element of flexibility that is needed to produce a product of the utmost quality.
Our priorities are perfect fitment, power, sound quality, and reliability, all at the same ranking. Over the years of being in the automotive tuning business, the only way we have found to maintain these qualities is to keep the core development and manufacturing in house.
That's why I keep stressing that we make our systems in house. I truly believe that it makes for a superior product.
(edited for content and comments)
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
Todd
No one can bend up 14 guage T304SS on a sheetmetal brake and basic shear like Kenny McNeil set you guys up several years ago in Chesnut Hill and "hold it all together with vise grips and weld it all up while the metal is trying to spring back.
The Germans and B&B and most others just bend up light guage T304SS sheet in a pressbrake or sheetmetal brake like HVAC ductwork. Your AWE Tuning still employs this method of manufacturing as you were TAUGHT that method by Kenny McNeil.........who worked and also TAUGHT the same faulty procedures to GHL Motosrports..........before that Kenny's employment was Turbo Performance center Mike Levitas.......and prior to that Kenny BOY was at B&B fabrication prior to that and etc. AWE employed the human hockey puck of fabrication. Look over your mufflers they look like SQUARE BOXES ........square is not strong and is weak.........always has and always will be weak.
No one can bend up 14 guage T304SS on a sheetmetal brake and basic shear like Kenny McNeil set you guys up several years ago in Chesnut Hill and "hold it all together with vise grips and weld it all up while the metal is trying to spring back.
The Germans and B&B and most others just bend up light guage T304SS sheet in a pressbrake or sheetmetal brake like HVAC ductwork. Your AWE Tuning still employs this method of manufacturing as you were TAUGHT that method by Kenny McNeil.........who worked and also TAUGHT the same faulty procedures to GHL Motosrports..........before that Kenny's employment was Turbo Performance center Mike Levitas.......and prior to that Kenny BOY was at B&B fabrication prior to that and etc. AWE employed the human hockey puck of fabrication. Look over your mufflers they look like SQUARE BOXES ........square is not strong and is weak.........always has and always will be weak.
Our systems are extensively stress relieved, utilizing press brake tooling made in house, in order to relieve that spring back tension that you correctly refer to (we discovered that issue years ago).
Our boxes are square on the 996TT system for appearance sake. Notice that our 997 and 996 muffler are round. We have the ability to do either.
Kenny has been gone from our facility for many years, and we have changed our manufacturing methods not only to improve our quality but to also cope with hugely increased demand for our products. His methods had to be abandoned years ago simply because they were not suited to higher volume quality manufacturing.
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
My facts are correct and your systems is modular NOW and has "Evolved" to modular as the tips are other parts didnt fit great. Yes you eveloved into modular so you can run catbypass pipes..........you have seen many of my products and logically your boys over there........."said we should do that too!"
We have always had separate cat sections, separate mufflers, and separate tailpipe sections.
Originally Posted by 993RSClubsport
You like to repeatedly stress that AWE Tuning is made in house. Now that is a fallacy of some kind ( is AWE a steel minimill) and you really shouldnt even want to do that.........why?
Fabspeed Motorsports does not make all their components IN HOUSE and NEVER WILL because that will make our EXHAUST systems , Airintakes and or anyone else products inferior.
I have invested in subcontractors that over $25,000,00 in equipment like multiple CNC mandrel benders that bend up to 1:1 radii...............water jet cutting and laser cutting for no warpage and better FLAT Flanges...
Fabspeed Motorsports does not make all their components IN HOUSE and NEVER WILL because that will make our EXHAUST systems , Airintakes and or anyone else products inferior.
I have invested in subcontractors that over $25,000,00 in equipment like multiple CNC mandrel benders that bend up to 1:1 radii...............water jet cutting and laser cutting for no warpage and better FLAT Flanges...
However, there is a large difference, in my opinion, between subcontracting components and subcontracting the entire product.
We choose not to subcontract the entire product and this is what we do in house:
We design our own systems by physically fitting on cars and with Solidworks CAD.
We prototype our own systems on our prototype racks.
We dyno test our own systems on our Mustang AWD chassis dyno.
We mandrel bend, assemble, press form, CNC cut, and TIG weld many components and the final products.
We do all of the above because we have learned that it gives us much better control over the final product vs having someone else do it all for us. We have found that tying complex components of our products to subcontractors seriously hampers the critical development phase, and in some cases financially prevents major changes to the product when changes are discovered to be necessary. It takes away a very important element of flexibility that is needed to produce a product of the utmost quality.
Our priorities are perfect fitment, power, sound quality, and reliability, all at the same ranking. Over the years of being in the automotive tuning business, the only way we have found to maintain these qualities is to keep the core development and manufacturing in house.
That's why I keep stressing that we make our systems in house. I truly believe that it makes for a superior product.
(edited for content and comments)
Last edited by Josh/AWE; 07-27-2006 at 06:51 PM.
#23
07-27-2006, 05:59 PM
Charley, very well put sir. I do not understand the bitterness, for lack of a better word, between Fab and anyone else, let alone AWE. I would think there would be friendly competition between us (tuners), not friendly fire.
Anyway, heres to professionalism.
Jay Putnam.
Anyway, heres to professionalism.
Jay Putnam.
#24
07-27-2006, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by charleysung
I'm not sure what I started here with this thread, but I just wanted some simple advice on what exhaust would be best for my car.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
You're right.
I didn't intend for this thread to descend to mudslinging.
I was merely trying to set the record straight regarding some incorrect comments that a competitor has repeatedly stated in public.
I still think there is some valuable content to be gleaned from these last few posts, but I'll go back to my last post and extract any inflammatory comments.
#25
07-28-2006, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by charleysung
I'm not sure what I started here with this thread, but I just wanted some simple advice on what exhaust would be best for my car.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
I think the attacks between AWE and Fabspeed are bordering on personal, and seem pretty inappropriate and unprofessional on a board that's frequented by their customers and clients. Makes me not want to buy from either of these companies.
#26
07-28-2006, 06:28 AM
Don't do the Fabstuff you will be like me and many others have done, selling it quickly to get something that sounds acceptable. You already have one exhaust you don't like, don't buy another. Wait until you hear the exhaust on the car before you buy anything. I will come by and you can listen to my Miltek and see if you like it. See you tonight.
#27
07-28-2006, 10:59 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MPLS, MN USA
Age: 63
Posts: 5,710
Rep Power: 464 
I liked Fabspeed on my 993TT,
I do not like Fabspeed on 996TT--sounds terrible (lacks exotic-ness),
drones, etc. blah, blah.
Europipe,
Milltek
Cargraphic
9FF
dont know about AWE, but they seem to stand behind their products well.
these all sound very good
IMHO
My PSI aint bad either, but they are overpriced, and PSI is not fabulous at
backing their distributor...
MK
I do not like Fabspeed on 996TT--sounds terrible (lacks exotic-ness),
drones, etc. blah, blah.
Europipe,
Milltek
Cargraphic
9FF
dont know about AWE, but they seem to stand behind their products well.
these all sound very good
IMHO
My PSI aint bad either, but they are overpriced, and PSI is not fabulous at
backing their distributor...
MK
#28
07-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Registered User
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida
Posts: 204
Rep Power: 27
Just to clarify a few things....
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...501#post662501
Regards,
Your FVD Team!
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...501#post662501
Regards,
Your FVD Team!
#29
07-28-2006, 09:55 PM
WOW! I can't believe so many of you are running the Fabspeed exhaust on your cars! You clearly have not done any research, and have never heard the other [better] exhausts' out there. The price seems to be the most competitive with the Fabspeed system, but you get what you pay for. Everyone I know who had the Fabspeed exhaust, removed it for a better exhaust, sold it used, or are still struggling to sell it used.
I have been working with 996tt's since their inception in 2000. Of all the exhausts I have heard (well over 15 different exhaust companies), Fabspeed is by far the worst sound. I have removed several Fabspeed exhaust from customer cars due to some complaints I was hearing..... The complaints I kept hearing:
1) "It sounds terrible" (The biggest drone on the market)
2) "Its rattling."
3) "Its broken"
Two of the Fabspeed systems that I removed had cracks on the welds. Basically, the Fabspeed systems looked like (2) glasspacks welded together, then polished to a mirror shine so they look pretty.
The exhaust' which I prefer:
1) Cargraphic Super Sound (The Best sound)
2) Europipe Loud (Still too quiet for me)
3) Gemballa (Basically very similar to Cargraphic)
4) Burns 3" Craig Special
5) FVD (They used to be identical to Cargraphic, not sure about now)
I have not had the pleasure of hearing the AWE exhaust, but from the looks of it, alot of R&D went into the design and testing of their exhaust. Kreiisieg is just a plain waste of money.
Hope this helps a bit to the people looking for a good exhaust.
I have been working with 996tt's since their inception in 2000. Of all the exhausts I have heard (well over 15 different exhaust companies), Fabspeed is by far the worst sound. I have removed several Fabspeed exhaust from customer cars due to some complaints I was hearing..... The complaints I kept hearing:
1) "It sounds terrible" (The biggest drone on the market)
2) "Its rattling."
3) "Its broken"
Two of the Fabspeed systems that I removed had cracks on the welds. Basically, the Fabspeed systems looked like (2) glasspacks welded together, then polished to a mirror shine so they look pretty.
The exhaust' which I prefer:
1) Cargraphic Super Sound (The Best sound)
2) Europipe Loud (Still too quiet for me)
3) Gemballa (Basically very similar to Cargraphic)
4) Burns 3" Craig Special
5) FVD (They used to be identical to Cargraphic, not sure about now)
I have not had the pleasure of hearing the AWE exhaust, but from the looks of it, alot of R&D went into the design and testing of their exhaust. Kreiisieg is just a plain waste of money.
Hope this helps a bit to the people looking for a good exhaust.
#30
07-28-2006, 11:37 PM
I can't even read some of these posts, as my head starts to hurt from the constant "in your face" attacks. Internet heroes belong in the Mitsubishi Evo and Subaru STI forums. If you want to see how foolish you look flexing your typing skills, go read a few posts on some of the "import tuner" sites and you will realize that internet battles are LAME and only detract from the credibility you have built through your products. Most of the members on this site are businessmen who have been able to succeed in the "real world" by exercising a bit of diplomacy and tact in their professional careers and not had to resort to childhood mudslinging.......Maybe there is a lesson there??