Kevin,

20 min sessions are brutal, compared to dyno pulls, 1/4mile runs, or street runs. A car that is "perfect" on the street or 1/4 mile can show "issues" when pushed on a track for more than 5 mins.

I understand that the ECU will pull timing, either from high intake temps or from detonation/knock... but from my understanding, you guys are spending your hard-earned money on a certain performance envelope that should not fall-off after things warm-up. And do you really want to rely on ecu-induced timing-retard to save your motor at 7400rpm?

Yes, the GN opened the W/I doors a few years back. It has been a known element of forced-induction performance for some time. Funny, the GNs and the Vettes choose to run 100%meth in their induction systems to very good results, although I am a strong believer in using some water in the mix (explained in the paper above). You wouldn't need to run 104 octane gas if you ran meth, I'd bet that the difference in performance wouldn't be much different between 93oct and W/I vs. 104oct and no W/I.

Typical F/I cars show a 5-10% increase in power and a much faster spool using W/I, as timing can be advanced due to a higher "realized" octane. Now, would you really turn away from 40-80 hp and a couple of hundred quicker spool?...really??? Would you like intake temps lower than ambient??

Also, keep in mind that the power delivery decrease due to heatsoaking intercoolers is virtually eliminated using W/I. Repeated runs/dynos/logging shows that the effectiveness of W/I to reduce intake temps is MUCH more effective than ANY air/air intercooler. There's not an air/air intercooler that is able to lower intake temps below ambient...not one.

*I don't understand your hesitation to use W/I on a P-car...I know the motor is considerably more expensive than a Buick's, but it still adheres to the same laws of internal combustion. A cooler intake charge, higher "realized" octane, combustion chamber cooling, cleaner pistons/valves, and the ability to not need rich a/f ratios for mandatory cooling all lead to a plus. And if pushing the most power without detonation is not your goal, the W/I will allow you to run a MUCH safer tune with the above benefits.

Keep in mind, EVERY WRC car uses W/I. There is no form of motorsports that puts an engine through greater abuse. Formula 1 used W/I with great success until it was outlawed. It worked on fighter planes in the 40's and it works on cars, boats, planes now.

I'm not familiar with how much intercoolers cost for the TT, but I'd be willing to bet it's significantly more than an Aquamist injection system. And I'd bet the W/I would outperform them, too...in every way.

I'm really going to have to push Tom to install a W/I system. If he does, and posts the results, I'm willing to make another bet that a wind of change will enter the P-car world. The problem will be finding someone who can dyno tune his car with the W/I...time will tell.

Be good,
TomK

 

I need to go to your PCA events... mine would hardly be classified as brutal. Now the open track events that I go to are a different story. I will stay out for 30+ minutes until my arms start to hurt, and that track has 2 1/4 mile straights... My Home PCA track is a glorified go cart course...fun nonetheless.
As for W/I... I will just go with the I/C's to complete the package when they are ready. I like the fact all components in this kit are the same for everyone who purchases it... This forum is littered with horror stories from members who tried the piecemeal approach... After the expense of this upgrade, I am going to stay firmly on the UMW reservation. Kevin

 

great post for you..


all this only helps our mod bug, and to each his own.. we all own pcars.. lets enjoy them the that we want to!!

 

I hope the porsche mechanic doesn't pinch the flame rings or something like that. Ride them hard so there's no suprises bro.

 

i did the bull run in a ruf gt2 550, and it was the fast smoothest car i had ever driven.

 

2.5mile straights???? Man, where do you run?

Our track days consist of Pocono and Limerock, with PDA.

I hear you, and the I/Cs will be a great addition that should help with engine longevity. I'm sorry to hear about the horror stories here, but you shouldn't consider the W/I as "piecemeal", unless you don't have a local tuner that can work with it. W/I is not witchcraft, with proper tuning it can do wonders for an engine.

It sounds like UMW's kit is well thought out, and that Kevin is offering something that should be very special.
Be careful with that beast!!!

Be good,
TomK

 

cjv,
With all due respect, W/I is no longer just for detonation. The 15 lbs of weight of a proper kit, with 1 gallon of 50%water/50%meth, is not a heavy load to carry for the benefits. This post is about people pushing their cars WAAAAY beyond what the factory ever intended, and it's not a cheap route. The safety of the W/I, in my opinion, more than outweighs the "weight" penalty. And why are these people doing all these stageXXX kits??? For power. A properly installed and tuned W/I kit will increase power, quicken spool, and/or allow the engine to be operating in a safer state. The added weight, and it's really not that much, would be a forgotten issue.

Really, it seems that there is very, very little experience with tuners using W/I on the P-cars. Other makes have embraced the W/I with excellent results, and the systems used today are very sophisticated...boost cuts/safetys/ect.

Using W/I, when properly dyno tuned, will make more power than not. That power will be more repeatable and the engine will be safer. It's a shame it's cast aside here.

Again, with all due respect.

Be good,
TomK

 

I used W/I on my S/C'd M3. I'd rather not have to deal with it again.

 

What kind of problems did you have with W/I? Can you elaborate?

 

No problems. It worked fine. It was just something that I wish I didn't need to use. Extra weight, having to refill it, etc..

I like not having one on my P-car.

 

Ordering and mixing up the drink (I use 60% water 40% meth) and having to reglarily fill the tank is a real pain. It does enable me to run 12lbs of boost on 92 octane with LOTS of timing on my non-intercooled 7.4L Suburban. The 640 torque at the wheels is worth the hassle IMO.

But let's talk about stage 3A&B!

Kevin - how are you going to prevent your drive shaft from snapping?

 

Of the three "700" packages discussed, only Protomotive
necessitates the use of some very nice custom Intercoolers and
Piping. Some believe this is an intregal part of moving up the
Horsepower ladder.
EVOMS GT700: I/C are an "option"
UMW 3a/3b: I/C are in the works

MK

 

Tom...That was 2 ... 1/4 mile straights, front and backstretch....Gingerman in S Haven MI...during the season they have open track from 5:30-8:30 every Tue,Wed and Thur for 60 $ , a bargain if i have ever seen one... Kevin

 

The way I see it,drive shafts break under two common circumstances...wheel hop and very sticky tires.. Yes it could snap driving to the grocery store, but unlikely on street tires even with all the tq this kit will produce. Spinning tires dont break axle shafts. As for tires, I have 315 BF Goodrich drag radials on 12x18 GT2 rears, and that is as exotic as i plan to go. As I posted previously, I am not running around town with 100 octane running the max file...just not going to do it. So the axle shaft issue is limited to drag days in my opinion.I imagine I will have a very good power number for the street and on 94 octane. I had wheelhop before with the old kit and remember it still had near 700ftlbs of tq as well, and I think I have it sorted out as to launching this car. I had one of the better ET's posted for a 16/24 hybrid with huge tq that could easily have snapped a shaft. If i go out and cant get a good ET..so be it. No slicks for me. If they break, then I will look at alternatives, but I only see drag days as the danger zone. Kevin

 

Yea man it's mindblowing on how smooth it is, power delivery wise and even with the moton's suspension wise!! People have got to experience it to understand

Yea it was a BIG PITA for me too. Whenever i turned it off it felt like performance was greater, i think the w/a injection was flooding or going through to much, i had to refill every week it was insane :/