Oh, man...someone sold you a line.

Shiv, I believe that's your cue....

Be good,
TomK

 

Make sure the Dyno Dynamics is in Shootout Mode

http://www.to4r.com/calcs/pwtq.php

 

Disturbing or not, the simple truth is the programs we have developed work. You can add a little more boost, or run a little higher AFR or hit another degree or two and gain a "little" more but we have done that already based on exhaust type, octane, climate etc. Our "out of the box" programs are based on 7 years of tuning and hundreds of files based on many variables. So in the end you probably are going to gain very little to nothing. And honestly when I tune a car I spend a lot of time on all the maps and it is no cheaper than a predeveloped program.

In answer to your question, yes. The programs are fairly aggressive. Not to mention the amount of time we spend mapping the TB, knock etc. It is more than HP but total power under the curve and drivability. There are no secrets in this game.

As far as the question about control from GIAC on pricing. NO this is not something that they say you must. The margins are given and I can choose to sell it at cost. They do not tell me I have to do anything. I choose not to because it serves no one any good. Do others bump the retail, sometimes but a majority of keep it suggested retail out of respect for one another. I am not controlled by anyone.

Quote:

I'm sure, and I bet you agree, others do not have the same knowledge/service you are providing yet they are benefiting from the higher prices. I know this is an "international" forum, but that's just not right in the USA.

Perhaps, I guess out of most of these "tuners" I am one of the few that builds motors, tunes and yes also flash. But I don't really worry about what others do. I provide a service a knowledge base the stems from the 356 to the present TT. Not everyone can say that. If they feel what I have to offer is right, then great. If not, then that is life. I a little different than most. I am not arrogant enough to say I should charge more than X company because they don't tune or build motors. That is also bad business.

Yes, the cost is not cheap, but Damos files will only get you so far. Cost will vary depending on hours of development. What kind of development? Flashloading, U-select files allowing you to choose what programs you want and how many all switchblade through the OBD2 port. That is not main stream and takes many hours to develop and test. It is not a premium because it is a Porsche, it is simple ROI.

 

Maybe the industry should not be so loose with the term tuner. Few on this board tune or build anything. Sad, but true. They will sure as hell sell you something though.

 

ROI? Who's ROI, yours? You obviously feel that the price is justified for your ROI; but what about those that don't build engines, do their own programing or have their own dynos? These "flashers," as Ace996 put it, are in the majority, not the minority. Flashers are therefore in a winfall situation because of the agreement struck between the members of your "tuner/flasher cartel"-all at your customers' expense. As for respect for other tuners, what about respect for the customer? As it stands now, the customer is getting screwed-particularly the Porsche customer, because of your arrangement. I'm curious, on what other products has the "tuner/flasher cartel" agreed to artificially inflate pricing-brakes, suspensions, exhausts? (not to mention other makes like BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc)

Also, please understand that I am making my points based on principal, not cost. It wouldn't matter if the pricing issue was one of tens or hundreds of dollars instead of thousands, or even tens of thousands. Though admittedly, the amount of money certainly adds a bit more sting in cases such as these.

While we (I) appreciate the knowledge you, and others like you, impart for "free" on forums such as these as well as other media, it is simply dishonest to price fix behind the scenes. In my line of business people have lost their jobs (if they were lucky) or gone to jail for such practices.

 

Huh price fixing? Most flashers get 15 percent spread. You think they are not entitled to make some profit?

This thead is halarious! You think that the next guy thinks it worth the time to do the work for 5 percent or ten? Hell it is hard to keep the doors open with an average of 30 points.

You are missing the point. No one wants to under cut the next guy. In othe word do it for free!

You want lower pricing call the manufactors and tell them.

I can tell you from building kits for EFI conversions Supercharger kits to our valve covers you have no idea the cost of development! I have some products that 3 years later have not completed my. ROI due to on going develoment or improvments. Investment and tooling if done in the US is not cheap and it is gnetting worse

Sorry for the typos I am on my phone

 

Stephen
Remember I Want You To Come To Texas And Finalize My Program... I Will Have A Dyno Available For You Is There Anything Else You Will Need??

 

My sentiments exactly its like calling Best Buy and complaining about the price of a copy of Windows Vista. GIAC certainly have imposed a large amount of 'Porsche tax' fare more than is necessary.

 

There's nothing wrong with profit-all for it. 5%, 10%, 15% or whatever you can get WITHOUT PRICE FIXING is great. If the margins are that low, then why do you all need to get together? Nice duck on the other products...

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm done...

 

Nice duct on the other products? I am not sure what your point is nor what you mean. Margins with any of the venders? 30 points is the max you get and that is if you have done business with them for 15 years. Hell, if buy Ruf stuff and they give a whomping 10%. I will only do that for my good customers because it is not worth the headaches and when you add shipping to that I make almost nothing. So what question did I duct. You don't want to believe that we get peanuts for margin in this business? Their thoughts are “you can make it on the install” Sad truth hurts eh. Most of us work our *** of and make little to nothing in the scheme of things. You would choke if you knew what my overhead was. Does that answer your question?

You can call it what you want however ridiculous it sounds, but my bet is you do not own a business and do understand no one wants to get in a war, you end up giving things away for what? To undercut the next guy? That doesn't make sense nor serve any purpose in the long run. Where is the price fix? GIAC has a suggested retail and we stick to that. GIAC doesn’t make us do anything. If I want to give you the software I can, but I won’t and don’t. Same with the others, no one has a gun to our head. We don't stick together in the sense you want to make this out to be. We don’t have a secret meeting on the phone once a week! It is someone calls me and says I am dealing with such and such and they want to sell me the product for X instead of your Y. My response is I doubt that so go ahead and get it from them. I have no interest in taking business on price. People buy from me for value, not necessary price. These are not Neon’s we own here.

FWIW do you know how much the software alone cost for tuning? How about the time it takes to write it. It is not cut and dry either. Just because you have software that writes doesn’t mean anything, you need a lot more than that. Again, these are all old conversations we are having here. In this industry you will honestly get what you pay for. I was an owner of Porsches long before I opened this company and have been screwed by many people that were offering the same thing for half the cost. Now that I am in the industry I laugh because I know better.

 

I've always trusted my car at Stephen's shop. He works his tail off for his customers, and his work is first class. His honesty, integrity, and many years of experience (plus his dedication to the PCA and Panorama) have earned my respect and gratitude.

 

You seriously have no clue what you are talking about. Stephen and his company are highly respected members of this board and who the heck are you?

Stephen buys his products from the manufacturer for a fixed price and then makes a reasonable profit when he sells it to the consumer. This is business 101! I suggest you lighten your tone because I have no problem banning you for your worthless comments.

 

awesome... ban for being an idiot

jeez, you tuners should know that we pay enough for these cars to start with. the tuning should be FREE! now someone sell me a set of k24/18g hybrids for cost please.

 

Perhaps the issue is not with the "sellers" but with the wholesalers/manufacturers...
Case in point...

JIC Cross coilovers for 996TT are $2800.
JIC coilovers for STI is $1700.

They are the SAME coilovers, same model.

I won't even discuss the cost of exhausts or other parts....

Yes, the "Porsche-Tax" is ridiculous...much like many other high-end cars. I just can't believe the costs for a "flash"...a dyno/road tune, yes I understand will be more money and is worth the expense.



Be good,
TomK

 

I don't know about that, but you can bet I will call Paul in the morning!

Some things are not cut and dry. For example. I built a supercharger kit for the Boxsters. We made everything then sent it out to be made for production. The plastic rotto molded pipes you would guess are not that much cost me over 12K to have the molds made, then you have to buy a certain amount of them at a time or they will not make the mold. The cost of the pipe to be made is separate from the molding cost. Now consider all the other components in the kit, brackets, hoses, we have to make headers, injectors, blower, relocation brackets and so on.

Yes in the end when we see our ROI the cost will drop like a rock, until then we have spent 2.5 years making this kit and have a long way to go to recoup any of those cost. I will not break even in 2.5 years because even though I control everything on the kit the margins are slim to keep the cost down so we can move units. Not to metion the changes we make along the way. Like I got sick of dealing with the CNC guys so I bought my own Fadal!