Tuning my 996tt
#76
04-12-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by carendt242
ace996, you keep mixing water & meth... water injection has never seemed that appealing considering the minimal gains. meth, however, is a different story.
while i would love to just fill up w/ race gas, it's just not practical. i normally drive longer ranges and it's impossible to plot a route that runs through 100 octane stations.
meth injection would be a killer app...
- chuck
while i would love to just fill up w/ race gas, it's just not practical. i normally drive longer ranges and it's impossible to plot a route that runs through 100 octane stations.
meth injection would be a killer app...
- chuck
Yes, I've run pure meth with great results...and I've run mixed with great results, too. If you're after the last few HPs...then pure meth will do it.
My vette was sucking down 1 gallon every 20 mins on the roadcourse...and loved it.
Be good,
TomK
#77
04-12-2007, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by cjv
It was the Aqua Chemist system. Porsche PhD was also testing it about the same time. This was about four years ago. No, it was not a progressive system.-There's a hint of why it was causing issues. Also, it also depends what level of boost the system starts spraying. Experience has shown that systems coming on early (under 10psi) are easier to tune.
I do not have a single client. I am a private individual. I do not sell any parts or services unless it is a part that I replaced and no longer use. -My mistake...with all the "we", "our", and "us" references in your posts, I mistakenly assumed that you had a shop and was a tuner.
It is my opinion there are only two things that make power ............ fuel and oxygen.-Absolutely, with a controlled spark, here's where the meth/water helps. As the intake charge is cooled BEYOND what is possible with even the most advanced air/air or air/water intercoolers, the intake charge is made more dense...thereby containing more air (oxygen). Also, with the methanol mixed in, the fuel is a higher octane...as meth is roughly 115octane. This allows one to tune to a higher level of boost and/or timing advance, without detonation (there's that controlled spark). Yes, the water injectors will help cheaper fuels from detonating. -again, yes...absolutely, but it will also allow more power or safety with normal/good fuel. I am not against water injectors except for the weight (8 pounds per gallon and the transfer of this weight when g forces shift) and the volumn required.- I understand, so if someone were to keep their windshield washer fluid reservoir filled, it's not an issue...right? Come to think of it...I've never seen anyone at a track or autox drain their windshield washer fluid to save weight...
Weight is a mortal enemy for our application. Especially in the front of the car. Instead we chose liquid CO2 in liquid jacketed intakes-what does that weigh and how long does it last...enough for a 20 minute session on a roadcourse?, more efficient IC's along with the IC's being coated to make them approximately 15% more efficient.-When someone can post a datalog of any intercooler cooling the intake charge below ambient, then I'll disappear and never mention W/I again. There are countless examples of charge temps being BELOW AMBIENT TEMPERATURE...Furthermore ceramic coating the combustion chambers and exhaust ports keep the head water temps 500-600 degrees cooler. Add wrapped cheaders and turbo's and our thermostatic motor fans is useless as it never comes on.
I'll assume you mean on the street or strip? not on a roadcourse...Now, for those that have followed what we have done they know we use nitrous which has a controller and pill box.- OK, now I'm starting to understand the mentality of the use of the car...nitrous is verboten on the roadcourse...so we haven't been addressing the same issues even from the start. It only takes a fifty shot to bring the turbo's on to full boost. Not much nitrous at all and not for very long. Our combustion chambers don't collect much carbon.
I'm not saying we have the only solution or the cheapest. It's just in our application, the meth/water system doesn't really help us out. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good application for others.
OK...again, now I'm starting to understand. I'm speaking of the car being used as a daily-driver and roadcourse vehicle. Nitrous has never been a consideration for that use for me, I see nitrous as a "strip" tool...not one for the "track" or the "street". And to be quite honest, I've never considered nitrous good for anything other than a shagged-out Mustang or Camaro...or something driven more than 1/4 mile at a time. And I would never, ever, ever, put nitrous on a Porsche...but that's just me.
I'll stick with my thoughts that all the turbo-swapped, massive power TTs on the road would be much better off, long and short term, if they ran W/I.
I do not have a single client. I am a private individual. I do not sell any parts or services unless it is a part that I replaced and no longer use. -My mistake...with all the "we", "our", and "us" references in your posts, I mistakenly assumed that you had a shop and was a tuner.
It is my opinion there are only two things that make power ............ fuel and oxygen.-Absolutely, with a controlled spark, here's where the meth/water helps. As the intake charge is cooled BEYOND what is possible with even the most advanced air/air or air/water intercoolers, the intake charge is made more dense...thereby containing more air (oxygen). Also, with the methanol mixed in, the fuel is a higher octane...as meth is roughly 115octane. This allows one to tune to a higher level of boost and/or timing advance, without detonation (there's that controlled spark). Yes, the water injectors will help cheaper fuels from detonating. -again, yes...absolutely, but it will also allow more power or safety with normal/good fuel. I am not against water injectors except for the weight (8 pounds per gallon and the transfer of this weight when g forces shift) and the volumn required.- I understand, so if someone were to keep their windshield washer fluid reservoir filled, it's not an issue...right? Come to think of it...I've never seen anyone at a track or autox drain their windshield washer fluid to save weight...
Weight is a mortal enemy for our application. Especially in the front of the car. Instead we chose liquid CO2 in liquid jacketed intakes-what does that weigh and how long does it last...enough for a 20 minute session on a roadcourse?, more efficient IC's along with the IC's being coated to make them approximately 15% more efficient.-When someone can post a datalog of any intercooler cooling the intake charge below ambient, then I'll disappear and never mention W/I again. There are countless examples of charge temps being BELOW AMBIENT TEMPERATURE...Furthermore ceramic coating the combustion chambers and exhaust ports keep the head water temps 500-600 degrees cooler. Add wrapped cheaders and turbo's and our thermostatic motor fans is useless as it never comes on.
I'll assume you mean on the street or strip? not on a roadcourse...Now, for those that have followed what we have done they know we use nitrous which has a controller and pill box.- OK, now I'm starting to understand the mentality of the use of the car...nitrous is verboten on the roadcourse...so we haven't been addressing the same issues even from the start. It only takes a fifty shot to bring the turbo's on to full boost. Not much nitrous at all and not for very long. Our combustion chambers don't collect much carbon.I'm not saying we have the only solution or the cheapest. It's just in our application, the meth/water system doesn't really help us out. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good application for others.
OK...again, now I'm starting to understand. I'm speaking of the car being used as a daily-driver and roadcourse vehicle. Nitrous has never been a consideration for that use for me, I see nitrous as a "strip" tool...not one for the "track" or the "street". And to be quite honest, I've never considered nitrous good for anything other than a shagged-out Mustang or Camaro...or something driven more than 1/4 mile at a time. And I would never, ever, ever, put nitrous on a Porsche...but that's just me.
I'll stick with my thoughts that all the turbo-swapped, massive power TTs on the road would be much better off, long and short term, if they ran W/I.
Last edited by ace996; 04-12-2007 at 09:51 PM.
#78
04-12-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by ace996
And to be quite honest, I've never considered nitrous good for anything other than a shagged-out Mustang or Camaro...or something driven more than 1/4 mile at a time. And I would never, ever, ever, put nitrous on a Porsche...but that's just me.
#80
04-12-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
I see we finally agree on something. Not only would I never use Nitrous on a Porsche, I would also never use water/meth on a Porsche either.
Be good,
TomK
#82
04-12-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by ace996
Comments in red...
We do monitor our charge air into the intercoolers, out of the intercoolers, the delta and the temps immediately proceeding the TB. You would be amazed at the temps attained just prior to the TB's.
Our tests found that we might as well shut off the liquid CO2 double jacket system when the ambient temps are below 70 degrees as there is very little benefit. The benefits increase as the ambients raise. We produce so much power at low boost that high boost is a waste in anything but straight line acceleration.
#83
04-12-2007, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by cjv
Ace,
We do monitor our charge air into the intercoolers, out of the intercoolers, the delta and the temps immediately proceeding the TB. You would be amazed at the temps attained just prior to the TB's.
Our tests found that we might as well shut off the liquid CO2 double jacket system when the ambient temps are below 70 degrees as there is very little benefit. The benefits increase as the ambients raise. We produce so much power at low boost that high boost is a waste in anything but straight line acceleration.
We do monitor our charge air into the intercoolers, out of the intercoolers, the delta and the temps immediately proceeding the TB. You would be amazed at the temps attained just prior to the TB's.
Our tests found that we might as well shut off the liquid CO2 double jacket system when the ambient temps are below 70 degrees as there is very little benefit. The benefits increase as the ambients raise. We produce so much power at low boost that high boost is a waste in anything but straight line acceleration.
And I hear you about the power thing...one can only put down so much power...some of the numbers that people attain are only good for "dyno" racing. I shudder thinking about how my friend is going to handle his Stage4 on the roadcourse...
I'm looking for a paper, put together by Aquamist and a few tuners, that address the real benefits of w/i. It was a phenomenal paper that I read several times to really wrap my head around the info. Perhaps you'll find it a worthwhile read.
Be good,
TomK
#84
04-12-2007, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by ace996
Sounds like an interesting system...liquid CO2...must do a great job of keeping the temps down but I even shy away from asking how much somehting like that would cost...
And I hear you about the power thing...one can only put down so much power...some of the numbers that people attain are only good for "dyno" racing. I shudder thinking about how my friend is going to handle his Stage4 on the roadcourse...
I'm looking for a paper, put together by Aquamist and a few tuners, that address the real benefits of w/i. It was a phenomenal paper that I read several times to really wrap my head around the info. Perhaps you'll find it a worthwhile read.
Be good,
TomK
And I hear you about the power thing...one can only put down so much power...some of the numbers that people attain are only good for "dyno" racing. I shudder thinking about how my friend is going to handle his Stage4 on the roadcourse...
I'm looking for a paper, put together by Aquamist and a few tuners, that address the real benefits of w/i. It was a phenomenal paper that I read several times to really wrap my head around the info. Perhaps you'll find it a worthwhile read.
Be good,
TomK
Agree about the usable power on a race track. Also about the power loss given heat sink and multiple laps. I have no experience with water injection in the applications you are talking about. It may work out very well.
Here is a pic of the double jacketed Y pipe. Not sure if the nozzles can be seen on the left side?
Last edited by cjv; 04-12-2007 at 11:44 PM.
#85
04-12-2007, 11:44 PM
I found the link but the paper is no longer available. Here is some FAQ info from the NASIOC forum, posted by DonkeyPunch. A pretty good read...
Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection
What is Water/Methanol Injection?
Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.
How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?
The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.
What is Methanol?
Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.
Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.
Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.
Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.
In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.
Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.
Can you run just water injection without methanol?
Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.
What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?
At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.
Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?
There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:
These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
Who is the best manufacture to go with?
That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.
How do I know how big a nozzle to run?
Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this ?
Calculator
Another injection calculator
[/url]=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351[/url]
It is at the bottom of the page...
Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php
Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.
Other sources:
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...55#special ty
This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500
You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html
Those are just some.
Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?
Yes, here are a few:
Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum
How do I know what mixture to inject?
THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water
Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.
Here is a freeze table for methanol also:
http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N
Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.
Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html
Here is a great how to page:
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
Can you build your own kit, and how?
You need some basics to build your own system.
You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.
You need nozzles
You need tubing
You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.
Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/
And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34
Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?
As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.
If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.
Can I run without a external intercooler?
Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.
What gains can be made from water/meth injection?
This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.
Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection
What is Water/Methanol Injection?
Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.
How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?
The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.
What is Methanol?
Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.
Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.
Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.
Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.
In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.
Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.
Can you run just water injection without methanol?
Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.
What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?
At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.
Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?
There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:
These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
Who is the best manufacture to go with?
That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.
How do I know how big a nozzle to run?
Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this ?
Calculator
Another injection calculator
[/url]=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351[/url]
It is at the bottom of the page...
Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php
Where can I get methanol?
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.
Other sources:
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...55#special ty
This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500
You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html
Those are just some.
Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?
Yes, here are a few:
Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum
How do I know what mixture to inject?
THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water
Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.
Here is a freeze table for methanol also:
http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N
Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.
Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html
Here is a great how to page:
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
Can you build your own kit, and how?
You need some basics to build your own system.
You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.
You need nozzles
You need tubing
You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.
Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/
And here is a great how to page on building your own...
http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34
Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?
As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.
If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.
Can I run without a external intercooler?
Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.
What gains can be made from water/meth injection?
This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.
#87
04-12-2007, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by cjv
Tom,
Agree about the usable power on a race track. Also about the power loss given heat sink and multiple laps. I have no experience with water injection in the applications you are talking about. It may work out very well.
Here is a pic of the double jacketed Y pipe. Not sure if the nozzles can be seen on the left side?
Agree about the usable power on a race track. Also about the power loss given heat sink and multiple laps. I have no experience with water injection in the applications you are talking about. It may work out very well.
Here is a pic of the double jacketed Y pipe. Not sure if the nozzles can be seen on the left side?
Only place I've seen that type of thinking was this...
http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...ory_Code=STORE
I bet a tank of CO2 blowing through that would do some real chilling.
Be good,
TomK
#88
04-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by cjv
Tom,
I'm sure things have changed alot, but where (what location) are they installing the injecting nozzle(s) now? Back when there was an issue as to where along with on the intake or pressurized side.
I'm sure things have changed alot, but where (what location) are they installing the injecting nozzle(s) now? Back when there was an issue as to where along with on the intake or pressurized side.
The location where most nozzles are being placed, on other cars, is just prior to the intake manifold, prior to the TB. I'm not quite sure how the 996TT's intake system is designed, but if one nozzle can be placed...that'd be the way. K.I.S.S. still applies. One nozzle is easier to monitor than two.
Aquamist's new systems also have phenomenal fail-safes and flow-monitors. They have become almost the equivalent to a mini-fuel system...with high-speed-valves that rival fuel-injectors for ability to control flow.
In time, I really do think w/i will catch on as it has on countless other applications. The benefits, even for longevity and safety, do a good job of outweighing the negatives and inconvenience of having to add another fluid
to the vehicle.
It cleans the internals of the motor.
It raises the effective octane of the air/fuel charge
It lowers the charge temps
It minimizes the detonation producing "hot-spots" in the combustion chamber
It allows a more complete combustion of fuel (science of this explained in the paper that I'm not able to find...)
It controls boost/pressure/timing induced detonation
I often sound like an advertisement for the stuff, I don't mean to be, but I've done more research on the subject than I care to admit.
In time...
Be good,
TomK
Last edited by ace996; 04-13-2007 at 12:29 AM.
#89
04-13-2007, 12:45 AM
This should be interesting. Hopefully things will be different than all the Vishnu WRX stories over the years. These aren't teenage boys you're dealing with here. Regards.
#90
04-13-2007, 01:23 AM
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay
Posts: 36
Rep Power: 0 
Originally Posted by Red C5
This should be interesting. Hopefully things will be different than all the Vishnu WRX stories over the years. These aren't teenage boys you're dealing with here. Regards.
-shiv