Hmmm. Such an ominous prophecy. Do tell. What sort of revelations are on the horizon, and who in particular are these demonic "certain people" that are not happy about it? Who will be the divinely inspired prophet who stands up to the axis of tyranny and delivers these revelations to the presently uninformed, obtuse masses?

TIA,

Craig

 

You guys are toooo much.

 

Haha! Craig, you are too much. I hope he is correct. There is a massive veil of secrecy in the Porsche tuning arena. It's rediculious if you ask me. The developement of any kind of open sorce user interface to our ECU's would blow the lid off of the outrageous prices we pat for a custom tune. A custom tune for my truck cost 500 C$ . There are a long list of software applications and as a result individuals who can tune a GM truck, intdependant of the level of complexity of the forced induction setup. Twin turbo, MAP base water/METH with NOS - $500 bucks!

If our Porsche market moved from a VERY SMALL handfull of individuals with the capacity to adjust AFR's, Timing, Boost levels etc to thousands, a stage 1 tune would be $500 and a custom tune for a custom hardware configuration would be a FRACTION of the going fare.

This, IMHO, is the "revelation on the horizon" of getting a simple user interface for tuning the parameters of our ECUs into the public domain. Then again, I could be wrong.

 

Very well said. It'll also be interesting to see how many, even if it is very small, will learn to tune themselves. It's not rocket-science, no matter what the secret-club of evil-tooners would have you believe. An opportunity for people to make changes and then compensate for those changes, properly with ECU adjustments will lead to a great deal of shared knowledge...and more reasonable pricing for those adjustments.

Yes, there are people who are not happy about open-source ECU tuning for Porsches...it will probably force them to need to actually "tune" cars instead of mailing "flashes". Flashes will always exist, but if there's a way to have a dyno/road tune performed locally and within economical reason, clients will choose that over a box-tune.

And that's what is starting to happen...it's actually better for everyone.

Be good,
TomK

 

what is the latest news???

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zippy

Haha! Craig, you are too much. I hope he is correct. There is a massive veil of secrecy in the Porsche tuning arena. It's rediculious if you ask me. The developement of any kind of open sorce user interface to our ECU's would blow the lid off of the outrageous prices we pat for a custom tune. A custom tune for my truck cost 500 C$ . There are a long list of software applications and as a result individuals who can tune a GM truck, intdependant of the level of complexity of the forced induction setup. Twin turbo, MAP base water/METH with NOS - $500 bucks!

Mike,

I am not familiar with the “massive veil of secrecy” that you refer to “in the Porsche tuning arena.” We have been openly discussing the finer nuances of Porsche tuning here on 6Speed for years, and several tuners actively participate in our discussions. Likewise, I have found most of the prominent tuners incredibly open and candid about their tuning methods. I have had long and educational talks with Stephen (IA), Todd Z. (EVOMS), Todd K. (Protomotive), Kevin (UMW) and Dan (Speed Gallery). They do not cloak their methods in secrecy. To the contrary, all five have been incredibly open, honest and candid about all aspects of Porsche tuning, including supplying advice, technical know how, and solutions, even when they were not the one working on my car at the time.

It appears that the focus of your comments center on the perceived unavailability of custom 996TT tuning and/or the inability of end users to independently tune their Porsches and/or the lack of neighborhood shops capable of custom tuning Porsches and/or the unavailability of $500 custom tuning. First, custom tuning IS most certainly available for 996TTs. EVOMS, IA, and Protomotive, among others, are fully capable of custom tuning 996TTs, and they do so on a regular basis. My car will be on EVOMS’ dyno on Monday for custom tuning. So the notion that custom tuning is not available is just plain wrong.

Second, the number of shops capable of custom tuning 996TTs is a product of many different factors, including consumer demand and technical competence. While there are countless Mustangs, Camaros, Golfs, 300ZXs, BMWs, WRXs, EVOs, Hondas, etc. in every town across the country seeking out after-market products and custom tuning, the demand for custom tuning of 996TTs is miniscule by comparison. Here on 6Speed, it may appear that everyone is modding the hell out of their cars, but we represent only a small fraction of 996TT owners. Moreover, guys who actively mod their cars are much more likely to join, and participate in, this forum than the typical 996TT owner that keeps his car stock from start to finish. Therefore, 6Speed does not reflect an accurate cross-section of 996TT owners – we are skewed towards people modding their cars. Even here in Los Angeles, where modding is common place, the vast majority of 996TTs remain stock right down to the wheels. Given the lack of demand, it is perfectly understandable that only a very few shops offer custom tuning of 996TTs (and take the time to become technically competent in 996TT tuning).

Third, the cost of 996TT tuning is also impacted to a significant degree by supply and demand. In the Mustung, EVO, BMW, Camaro, Golf, 300ZX, WRX and EVO communities, a company that develops a new after-market product can spread the cost of researching and developing that product over many thousand units that will be sold. In contrast, someone that develops a new after-market product for a 996TT will sell far fewer units by comparison. Therefore, the R&D costs must be spread out over far fewer units, thereby increasing the cost of each individual unit. Additionally, production costs are also higher per unit for lower production volumes. In other words, the per unit production cost for 500 Porsche hoses is higher than the per unit production cost of 10,000 Mustang hoses.

I am the first to recognize that the cost of Porsche tuning is also impacted to a certain degree by the higher average income of 996TT owners, as compared to owners of less expensive cars. 996TT tuners recognize the greater financial resources of their customer base and, to varying degrees, factor this into their pricing. Like you, I wish this was not the case.

Fourth, I do not share your desire to personally tune my 996TT in the comfort of my own home. Likewise, I have no interest in performing a vasectomy on myself, or building my own television. I leave these matters to professionals who are trained and experienced in such endeavors. I would rather have an experienced tuner, who has previously tuned dozens of 996TTs, tune my car. I am confident that they will do a better job than I, regardless of the software assistance I might receive. If there is a demand for self-tuning of 996TTs by individual owners, a new product that facilitates this will be a welcome addition to the market. I personally have no interest. I am about to get an EBC. That will be the extent of my tuning involvement.

Finally, I am all in favor of advancing Porsche tuning as far as possible, and I support anyone who wants to bring new products or technology to the market. Competition is good on many levels. On the other hand, I think it is unwarranted and inappropriate for a Johnny Come Lately to suggest that all 996TT tuning to date has been woefully incompetent, and to appoint himself the savior of Porsche tuning. Frankly, I don’t think we are in need of a savior. To the contrary, I think we are fortunate to already have several great options for Porsche tuning, including many of the sponsors of this fine forum. If a new company proves itself a competent Porsche tuner, I will give that company the respect that it has earned and deserves. Until then, I would expect that company to be respectful in its pursuit of Porsche tuning excellence, and to refrain from unwarranted and/or pejorative references to those tuners that have already earned our respect through proven results.

Regards,

Craig

 

this thread is referring more to heavily modified TT's right? Where you will need a custom tune/ECU to get all your mods to work better together. Or to bring out the full potential of all your mods.

My question: What about guys with just exhaust and intake. In our case a basic Stage 1 flash is all thats required, right ?

 

[quote=Craig]

" 996TT tuners recognize the greater financial resources of their customer base and, to varying degrees, factor this into their pricing. Like you, I wish this was not the case. "

The problem as I see it is quite simple...many are paying the same or more for an ecu flash as it would normally cost for a custom tune....

If you believe that there is justification for this , you can rationalise your
belief any way you like.Those that see the only justification being price gouging wil no doubt welcome discussion on the subject...

the most salient being why do some tuners charge the R&D for a custom Tune (lets say 2-3 days on dyno) for each flash when business rules suggest that the cost should be much cheaper????


...if you answer becasue they can (insert veil of secrecy) , we get nowhere, which is where we are at ther moment.

 

Craig,
Well said - I generally agree. And I share in your desire not to perform a self-vasectomy (one way or another).
But your third point I think is worthy of discussion. A GIAC flash costs about $2000 no matter where you go. I think it may have been earlier in this same thread that we arrived at a loose consensus this is largely a result of what GIAC charges vendors, not the result of some enormous, anti-market vendor collusion. Upsolute flashes are $700 or so, yes? It sounds as though Shiv's planned system will fall somewhere between the two.
GIAC, from what I can tell, seems to be the gold standard, even though it offers very similar HP/TQ gains on a stock car as Upsolute. Which then begs the question "Am I really willing to pay $1300 more for a very similar product?" It's a question I've asked myself. Reading about the early days of Upsolute chips has me almost ready to spend that extra $1300, only because I'm paranoid about getting a CEL (I never, ever want to see one. I'm freaked out enough by a seemingly random "Check engine oil level" message showing up on my OBC tonight - anything to worry about?).
But I can see the other side of the coin as well. I'm not convinced that GIAC needs to charge $2000 to subsidize their R&D for this product. It isn't rocket science (even if some of the principles are the same!). I think this is why people are welcoming Shiv. If he can develop a product that's very similar to GIAC and sell it at a profit for less money, I think that's great. I don't want to be subject to a GIAC/Porsche tax unless absolutely necessary.
Beyond a general agreement, it's worth emphasizing that I fully agree with your commendation of the Porsche tuners on this board. I have yet to mod my car in any way (though I have some toys ready to be installed), but Kevin @ UMW, in particular, has been very kind and helpful thus far. Make no mistake, I will head his way when I'm shopping for this sort of thing in the future.
Last but not least, I haven't gotten the impression Shiv is putting anyone else's work down. Maybe he has and I just didn't notice it, but I think the whole conversation has gotten some people defensive, and not without cause - there have certainly been some provocative messages in the thread. Proven results are key, though, and it's one reason that for the time being, GIAC will probably get my money.
Best, Justin

 

GIAC flashes are indisputably more expensive than Upsolute. On the other hand, GIAC is no more expensive than most other companies that program 996TT ECUs (e.g., Protomotive, Revo, FVD, Techart, Gemballa, and other Euro tuners). In fact, many Euro tuners charge more than GIAC. Are the less expensive Upsolute programs equal in terms of performance, reliability and other indicators of quality? I honestly cannot answer that question. They may be. On the other hand, GIAC has an extraordinary track record supporting the performance and reliability of their programs. More so than Upsolute. GIAC’s track record provides me with a modicum of comfort that I personally do not have with Upsolute (even though Upsolute may deserve it).

One of the great benefits of GIAC is the tremendous number of different programs they have developed for numerous different turbos and set-ups. If you think you might upgrade your turbos at some point down the line, or add other products that affect the tune, you should consider what company offers the required programming, and will best support the upgrade without having to pay for new programming from scratch (as opposed to a relatively small upgrade charge).

I initially used a FVD ECU flash. IMHO, it was inferior, as was the customer support (that is another discussion). I then switched to a custom tune by Gunther (a highly regarded European ECU tuner). His custom tune was outstanding and I would never have switched had I kept the turbos for which the tune was designed. When I switched turbos, I switched to GIAC because they had already created a program for my particular turbos, and I did not want to reinvent the wheel. Thereafter, I switched to the GT800 turbos and they came with a program custom made by GIAC for the turbos. I have since had my program customized for my particular set-up. Again, this was done through GIAC.

GIAC offers both off-the-shelf programming for standardized set-ups, and custom tuning for those so inclined. Personally, I think this duality offers value to consumers, even if they initially do not plan anything but an off-the-shelf program.

Regards,

Craig

 

we had this discussion many times.... as far as tuners go....
In my opinion.... the secret is in the detail.
good luck,
Markski

 

shiv--

welcome.

are you going to adress cam timing issues??? i know in the subie community there is alot of performance to be had by adjusting the avcs cam timing to be mnore agressive.....

as far as i know, this isnt currently done on the P's....

ese

 

Apprearantly my friend.

I would prefer to perform a self vasectomy than to tune my car myself - you must be thinking of someone else.



You use this word all the time. What the hell does it mean?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and it's interesting to see that a guy who has taken his tuning to the level you have is truly a victom of the "veil of secracy" to the degree to which I believe Shiv is referring.

Simply put, there are 4 guys on our planet that controll who who access to the inner working of our ECU.

1) Garrett Lim - GIAC
2) Gunther ? - Gemballa -> Sportec
3) Todd Knighting - Protomotive
4) Mr. Upsolure - Upsolute

Everyone else buys from these guys and does not TUNE themselves - this is the secret.

The developement of a broadly available interface would enable guys like Stephen Kaspar of Imagine Auto, Sam @ Speed Gallery and Todd @ EVO to custom tune your car, as you believe they currently can, without having to get a canned or semi-canned from one of the actual tuners listed above. Have you ever had 'this' disccussion during any of your conversations with 'tuners'?

I agree 100% I want an end to the Ologopoly!

 

It's a shame more people can't crack the motronic computer code. I have a tuner near my house that has done it. However, he can only do pre-996 stuff. He does have ability to do it, he just feels the market is over saturated and it's not worth the time and effort. He actually gave me a little demo of how he maninpulates the code on 993's and 944's. It's pretty cool. Not exactly rocket science once you have access to the ability to change the parameters. Trick is being able to access the codes.

 

The trick is knowing what to do with it, once you crack the code...

Having the knowledge of the entire system, from fueling to cams and all
points between.


MK