Upgraded Turbo HP. What should I be putting down?
#46
07-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Neil
Dez I think you just have a good tuner. 
Neil
Neil
now what about the DV's?
#47
07-03-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by heavychevy
now what about the DV's?
#49
07-03-2007, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by heavychevy
Well, I have a traqmate GPS laptimer system which I use when running track days at Road Atlanta and used it twice prior to going RWD, once while RWD. The times I ran AWD I was running plain old, worn Pirelli Pzero tires, the time RWD was with hoosiers.
Well I let the folks here at 6speed and Orton talk me into getting the RWD and from the moment I went full throttle, I knew something wasnt right, I drove back to the shop and told Neil the car felt sluggish at which point he said it was probably wheelspin. So I said okay, put the car on my trailer and left in preparation for the weekend at Road Atlanta.
Well in March of this year I ran time trials with NASA at Road Atlanta and the car was awesome, while running on the last leg of street tires I was 5th overall and other than a pro driving a 997 GT3 cup car and a former pro driving a built motor C6Z06 the other two cars were ahead of me by less than .7 sec and that was entirely due to tires. I could have gone even faster on the street tires but left the track after seeing that I went so much faster than I expected.
So I go back about a 45 days later with hoosiers and RWD expecting (from what I had heard of the RWD being more nimble, quicker, blah blah blah) to be MUCH faster than I was with the street tires. Well I went faster, but only by 2 seconds, which should have been more, much more. I went to pass a C6Z and where I would blow by in AWD, I was barely passing one on the straights and I didnt like that.
So I go home that night and look at my traqmate lap data which shows a map of the track with dots representing my track sessions and compare my March data with the most recent May data. What I saw shocked me, on the straight parts of the track, the dot representing my AWD sessions accelerated faster than the one representing my RWD data. I did acheive a better lap time but only due to the extra traction in the twisty areas. It wasnt like barely faster, it was quite a bit faster on the straights too. The worst part about the data was that with the RWD and hoosiers, I got a better exit out of the turn going into the straight and then the AWD would just walk it down on the straight, looked like two different cars, nothing DRAMATIC but more than enough to notice.
So needless to say I am back to being AWD and headed back to RA in two weeks to demolish my best time, which I am quite sure I can do. If you download traqview from traqmate.com I can send you my laps by email so you can see for yourself. If you listen to anyone else here you are getting results from butt dynos, what I have is concrete evidence to the contrary which I have yet to see someone else post some evidence that their car was faster after going RWD other than Dragsters that then put slicks or DR's on after doing so.
Well I let the folks here at 6speed and Orton talk me into getting the RWD and from the moment I went full throttle, I knew something wasnt right, I drove back to the shop and told Neil the car felt sluggish at which point he said it was probably wheelspin. So I said okay, put the car on my trailer and left in preparation for the weekend at Road Atlanta.
Well in March of this year I ran time trials with NASA at Road Atlanta and the car was awesome, while running on the last leg of street tires I was 5th overall and other than a pro driving a 997 GT3 cup car and a former pro driving a built motor C6Z06 the other two cars were ahead of me by less than .7 sec and that was entirely due to tires. I could have gone even faster on the street tires but left the track after seeing that I went so much faster than I expected.
So I go back about a 45 days later with hoosiers and RWD expecting (from what I had heard of the RWD being more nimble, quicker, blah blah blah) to be MUCH faster than I was with the street tires. Well I went faster, but only by 2 seconds, which should have been more, much more. I went to pass a C6Z and where I would blow by in AWD, I was barely passing one on the straights and I didnt like that.
So I go home that night and look at my traqmate lap data which shows a map of the track with dots representing my track sessions and compare my March data with the most recent May data. What I saw shocked me, on the straight parts of the track, the dot representing my AWD sessions accelerated faster than the one representing my RWD data. I did acheive a better lap time but only due to the extra traction in the twisty areas. It wasnt like barely faster, it was quite a bit faster on the straights too. The worst part about the data was that with the RWD and hoosiers, I got a better exit out of the turn going into the straight and then the AWD would just walk it down on the straight, looked like two different cars, nothing DRAMATIC but more than enough to notice.
So needless to say I am back to being AWD and headed back to RA in two weeks to demolish my best time, which I am quite sure I can do. If you download traqview from traqmate.com I can send you my laps by email so you can see for yourself. If you listen to anyone else here you are getting results from butt dynos, what I have is concrete evidence to the contrary which I have yet to see someone else post some evidence that their car was faster after going RWD other than Dragsters that then put slicks or DR's on after doing so.
Are you saying that your car made less whp with RWD (which is impossible)...or because you had less traction (due to not having LSD), you found your times to be slower on a road course?
I just want to make sure I understand..because the fact is (and you can't argue physics)..RWD puts more of your engine's power to the ground than AWD...and if you had severe traction problems with RWD and were using proper tires, that means you did not corner-balance your car with a quality aftermarket coil-over...and you did not install an LSD for track use.
To continually suggest that converting to RWD makes 996TT's "slower" is a completely innacurate statement.
It reduces weight and drivetrain loss, both contributing to increased acceleration..but yes, traction can and will be reduced if you do not set your car up correctly.
So Des; did you or did you not install a proper coil-over and have the car corner-balanced after your RWD conversion? Also...did you or did you not install a LSD in your car?
I think you should change your signature to;
RWD is bad......if you fail to set your car up properly after converting to it....so dont be bad...... mmmmkkaaayyy
For the record, everyone...a RWD conversion will NOT make your car slower. It will absolutely make your car FASTER....*if set up properly*. If it actually made cars slower, Porsche would not have made it's primary track cars all RWD (CGT, GT2 and GT3).
*If you road race your car, then you'll need to install an LSD to prevent wheelspin caused by wheel-lift in corners...like the GT2 and GT3 both have. If you do NOT road race your car, you will enjoy faster straight-line acceleration without a LSD (assuming you use quality tires), since the open differential will still put torque to both tires when not in corners.
**You will also need to install a quality coil-over setup on the car and have it corner-balanced if you decide to switch to RWD. If you do not do this, the car will NOT drive properly since the stock suspension is set up for AWD. You can't just remove the front driveshaft from an AWD car and expect the car to handle properly without any other adjustments. You need to set the suspension up *properly*.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 07-04-2007 at 08:49 AM.
#50
07-03-2007, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by heavychevy
Well, I have a traqmate GPS laptimer system which I use when running track days at Road Atlanta and used it twice prior to going RWD, once while RWD. The times I ran AWD I was running plain old, worn Pirelli Pzero tires, the time RWD was with hoosiers.
Well I let the folks here at 6speed and Orton talk me into getting the RWD and from the moment I went full throttle, I knew something wasnt right, I drove back to the shop and told Neil the car felt sluggish at which point he said it was probably wheelspin. So I said okay, put the car on my trailer and left in preparation for the weekend at Road Atlanta.
Well in March of this year I ran time trials with NASA at Road Atlanta and the car was awesome, while running on the last leg of street tires I was 5th overall and other than a pro driving a 997 GT3 cup car and a former pro driving a built motor C6Z06 the other two cars were ahead of me by less than .7 sec and that was entirely due to tires. I could have gone even faster on the street tires but left the track after seeing that I went so much faster than I expected.
So I go back about a 45 days later with hoosiers and RWD expecting (from what I had heard of the RWD being more nimble, quicker, blah blah blah) to be MUCH faster than I was with the street tires. Well I went faster, but only by 2 seconds, which should have been more, much more. I went to pass a C6Z and where I would blow by in AWD, I was barely passing one on the straights and I didnt like that.
So I go home that night and look at my traqmate lap data which shows a map of the track with dots representing my track sessions and compare my March data with the most recent May data. What I saw shocked me, on the straight parts of the track, the dot representing my AWD sessions accelerated faster than the one representing my RWD data. I did acheive a better lap time but only due to the extra traction in the twisty areas. It wasnt like barely faster, it was quite a bit faster on the straights too. The worst part about the data was that with the RWD and hoosiers, I got a better exit out of the turn going into the straight and then the AWD would just walk it down on the straight, looked like two different cars, nothing DRAMATIC but more than enough to notice.
So needless to say I am back to being AWD and headed back to RA in two weeks to demolish my best time, which I am quite sure I can do. If you download traqview from traqmate.com I can send you my laps by email so you can see for yourself. If you listen to anyone else here you are getting results from butt dynos, what I have is concrete evidence to the contrary which I have yet to see someone else post some evidence that their car was faster after going RWD other than Dragsters that then put slicks or DR's on after doing so.
Well I let the folks here at 6speed and Orton talk me into getting the RWD and from the moment I went full throttle, I knew something wasnt right, I drove back to the shop and told Neil the car felt sluggish at which point he said it was probably wheelspin. So I said okay, put the car on my trailer and left in preparation for the weekend at Road Atlanta.
Well in March of this year I ran time trials with NASA at Road Atlanta and the car was awesome, while running on the last leg of street tires I was 5th overall and other than a pro driving a 997 GT3 cup car and a former pro driving a built motor C6Z06 the other two cars were ahead of me by less than .7 sec and that was entirely due to tires. I could have gone even faster on the street tires but left the track after seeing that I went so much faster than I expected.
So I go back about a 45 days later with hoosiers and RWD expecting (from what I had heard of the RWD being more nimble, quicker, blah blah blah) to be MUCH faster than I was with the street tires. Well I went faster, but only by 2 seconds, which should have been more, much more. I went to pass a C6Z and where I would blow by in AWD, I was barely passing one on the straights and I didnt like that.
So I go home that night and look at my traqmate lap data which shows a map of the track with dots representing my track sessions and compare my March data with the most recent May data. What I saw shocked me, on the straight parts of the track, the dot representing my AWD sessions accelerated faster than the one representing my RWD data. I did acheive a better lap time but only due to the extra traction in the twisty areas. It wasnt like barely faster, it was quite a bit faster on the straights too. The worst part about the data was that with the RWD and hoosiers, I got a better exit out of the turn going into the straight and then the AWD would just walk it down on the straight, looked like two different cars, nothing DRAMATIC but more than enough to notice.
So needless to say I am back to being AWD and headed back to RA in two weeks to demolish my best time, which I am quite sure I can do. If you download traqview from traqmate.com I can send you my laps by email so you can see for yourself. If you listen to anyone else here you are getting results from butt dynos, what I have is concrete evidence to the contrary which I have yet to see someone else post some evidence that their car was faster after going RWD other than Dragsters that then put slicks or DR's on after doing so.
My car dropped 3 tenths with the conversion using the D-Box as a gauge.It works.
#51
07-03-2007, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
Okay, let's address this nonsense once and for all.
Are you saying that your car made less whp with RWD (which is impossible)...or because you had less traction (due to not having LSD), you found your times to be slower on a road course?
I just want to make sure I understand..because the fact is (and you can't argue physics)..RWD puts more of your engine's power to the ground than AWD...and if you had severe traction problems with RWD and were using proper tires, that means you did not corner-balance your car with a quality aftermarket coil-over...and you did not install an LSD for track use.
To continually suggest that converting to RWD makes 996TT's "slower" is a completely innacurate statement.
It reduces weight and drivetrain loss, both contributing to increased acceleration (ala CGT, GT2, GT3, Enzo, ZO6..and just about every other very fast sports car on the planet)...but yes, traction can and will be reduced if you do not set your car up correctly.
So Des; did you or did you not install a proper coil-over and have the car corner-balanced after your RWD conversion? Also...did you or did you not install an LSD in your car?
I think you should change your signature to; That would much more accurate.
For the record everyone...RWD conversion do NOT make your car slower. It will indeed make you car FASTER....IF set up properly.
If you road race your car, then you'll need to install an LSD to prevent wheelspin caused by wheel-lift in corners...like the GT2 and GT3 both have. If you do NOT road race your car, you will enjoy faster straight-line accleration without an LSD (assuming you use quality tires), since the open differential will still put torque to both tires when not in corners.
IMPORTANT: You will also *need* to install a quality coil-over setup on the car and have it corner-balanced if you decide to switch to RWD. If you do not do this, the car will NOT drive properly since the stock suspension is set up for AWD.
Are you saying that your car made less whp with RWD (which is impossible)...or because you had less traction (due to not having LSD), you found your times to be slower on a road course?
I just want to make sure I understand..because the fact is (and you can't argue physics)..RWD puts more of your engine's power to the ground than AWD...and if you had severe traction problems with RWD and were using proper tires, that means you did not corner-balance your car with a quality aftermarket coil-over...and you did not install an LSD for track use.
To continually suggest that converting to RWD makes 996TT's "slower" is a completely innacurate statement.
It reduces weight and drivetrain loss, both contributing to increased acceleration (ala CGT, GT2, GT3, Enzo, ZO6..and just about every other very fast sports car on the planet)...but yes, traction can and will be reduced if you do not set your car up correctly.
So Des; did you or did you not install a proper coil-over and have the car corner-balanced after your RWD conversion? Also...did you or did you not install an LSD in your car?
I think you should change your signature to; That would much more accurate.
For the record everyone...RWD conversion do NOT make your car slower. It will indeed make you car FASTER....IF set up properly.
If you road race your car, then you'll need to install an LSD to prevent wheelspin caused by wheel-lift in corners...like the GT2 and GT3 both have. If you do NOT road race your car, you will enjoy faster straight-line accleration without an LSD (assuming you use quality tires), since the open differential will still put torque to both tires when not in corners.
IMPORTANT: You will also *need* to install a quality coil-over setup on the car and have it corner-balanced if you decide to switch to RWD. If you do not do this, the car will NOT drive properly since the stock suspension is set up for AWD.
#52
07-03-2007, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by joetwint
Problem is that you did not remove the front diff(only removed the shaft).......so you had the drag of the front diff without it being driven by the motor and this would of course cause the car to not run any faster than before.The car was running slower on the straights because you had sticky tires slowing you down(more friction+the drag of an undriven front diff).......your times in AWD with the sticky tires would have probably been the same. My car dropped 3 tenths with the conversion using the D-Box as a gauge.It works.
My car dropped 3 tenths with the conversion using the D-Box as a gauge.It works.I was hoping you would post. I knew that you had recently and properly converted your car to RWD. Great info. Thanks.
P.S. - I didn't realize he left the entire front diff in place. That explains a lot.
#53
07-03-2007, 09:36 PM
LOL I appreciate all the attention but how the HELL can you tell me when my car is faster and when it's not when I'm the one driving it. Butt dynos arent the most accurate things in the world but they sure give you and idea of what's going on in YOUR OWN car. I remember riding in member paul parker's car and feeling that it felt slower than mine even though it had the same setup as mine, minus the no cats. Then I get the same treatment on my car and it feels the same. The tire argument is B.S. because my car is just as fast now with the AWD and Hoosiers as it was on the street tires. Not to mention I can watch my traqmate and see my car exit turn 7 faster in RWD and watch the laps with AWD come and walk it down, and that's because of tires???? I dont know the most about cars but I'll be damned if someone in another place is going to tell me what's going on with my car when I'm the one driving it.
Youre right you cant deny physics but have you ever taken the time to think that with a Rear Engine car that because all the weight is over the back wheels it bogs the rear wheels down a touch (i.e. inertia) compared to a front engine, you want weight transfer to the rear for traction but if you didnt need it would it be helpful? The answer is hell no. Since we all have legs let me liken it to running with a 50 lbs vest on, can you run as fast with it on as not, no the same to a lesser extent applies to the rear engine car with power to the rear wheels, the wheel have more weight on the thereby making the power delivered to them LESS helpful. With there being very little weight and even less under acceleration, as long as the front wheels have traction, they can use power more efficiently, (than that same weight being transfered to the rear wheels) because they have less weight bogging them down (something like a lotus adding 50 hp and a bentley gt adding 50 hp, the lotus gets more out of it because the local hp/weight ratio is affected more). Yeah the motor may be making the same amount of power, but that power is LESS efficiently being used by way of physics and maybe moreso by way of robbing hp by drivetrain. Does that mean that the car should be FWD now, NO #1 because of traction and #2 because of handling, but there are merits to have the front wheels turning when it comes to acceleration, especially in rear engine car.
Youre right you cant deny physics but have you ever taken the time to think that with a Rear Engine car that because all the weight is over the back wheels it bogs the rear wheels down a touch (i.e. inertia) compared to a front engine, you want weight transfer to the rear for traction but if you didnt need it would it be helpful? The answer is hell no. Since we all have legs let me liken it to running with a 50 lbs vest on, can you run as fast with it on as not, no the same to a lesser extent applies to the rear engine car with power to the rear wheels, the wheel have more weight on the thereby making the power delivered to them LESS helpful. With there being very little weight and even less under acceleration, as long as the front wheels have traction, they can use power more efficiently, (than that same weight being transfered to the rear wheels) because they have less weight bogging them down (something like a lotus adding 50 hp and a bentley gt adding 50 hp, the lotus gets more out of it because the local hp/weight ratio is affected more). Yeah the motor may be making the same amount of power, but that power is LESS efficiently being used by way of physics and maybe moreso by way of robbing hp by drivetrain. Does that mean that the car should be FWD now, NO #1 because of traction and #2 because of handling, but there are merits to have the front wheels turning when it comes to acceleration, especially in rear engine car.
Last edited by heavychevy; 07-03-2007 at 09:42 PM.
#54
07-03-2007, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by nigelquest
Can you guys please give me a rough idea of the HP at the crank and wheels for an 996tt manual with the following mods -
K24 turbos
Orton ECU tuning (1.0-1.1 bar)
AWE exhaust
BMC Sport Air Filter
converted to rear wheel drive (less drive train loss)
Also, any recommendations on what else to compliment this setup are appreciated. Thanks!
K24 turbos
Orton ECU tuning (1.0-1.1 bar)
AWE exhaust
BMC Sport Air Filter
converted to rear wheel drive (less drive train loss)
Also, any recommendations on what else to compliment this setup are appreciated. Thanks!
My recommendations if interested:
Modify your turbos by adding #45 impellers.. aka 24/20G turbos good for 800 crank hp,($2000) add a second bosch fuel pump ($300) in series with 10mm Aeromotive fuel ($500) lines with a bigger FPR ($200) ** or call SUMMIT racing and they have a complete aeromotive kit in many forms for your car ranging from 1000 to $1500. Lastly, have your stock headers done ($300)... and you can call many of the tuners for there ECU programing. You will eventually have to add larger injectors to accomodate this horsepower increase. I think these are very duable mods with out shelling out a lot of cash when compared to many of the kits.
Robert
#56
07-03-2007, 10:41 PM
[quote=heavychevy]The tire argument is B.S. because my car is just as fast now with the AWD and Hoosiers as it was on the street tires.
It should be faster AWD +Hoosier than it was AWD+ street tires
Not to mention I can watch my traqmate and see my car exit turn 7 faster in RWD and watch the laps with AWD come and walk it down, and that's because of tires????
Read my earlier statement "drag of undriven front diff +sticky tires
I dont know the most about cars but I'll be damned if someone in another place is going to tell me what's going on with my car when I'm the one driving it.
We do it all the time here that's how we help others figure out problems from across the country
Youre right you cant deny physics but have you ever taken the time to think that with a Rear Engine car that because all the weight is over the back wheels it bogs the rear wheels down a touch (i.e. inertia) compared to a front engine, you want weight transfer to the rear for traction but if you didnt need it would it be helpful? You have not changed the weight over the rear wheels by going rwd only transfering all the power to them and reducing drivetrain loss.
The answer is hell no. Since we all have legs let me liken it to running with a 50 lbs vest on, can you run as fast with it on as not, no the same to a lesser extent applies to the rear engine car with power to the rear wheels, the wheel have more weight on the thereby making the power delivered to them LESS helpful. With there being very little weight and even less under acceleration, as long as the front wheels have traction, they can use power more efficiently, (than that same weight being transfered to the rear wheels) because they have less weight bogging them down (something like a lotus adding 50 hp and a bentley gt adding 50 hp, the lotus gets more out of it because the local hp/weight ratio is affected more).
YOU LOST ME HERE!
Yeah the motor may be making the same amount of power, but that power is LESS efficiently being used by way of physics and maybe moreso by way of robbing hp by drivetrain.
AWD will only be faster in a car that is unproperly set up for RWD(NO LSD,NOT PROPERLY CORNER BALANCED AFTER SWAP)or if the track has poor traction.
It should be faster AWD +Hoosier than it was AWD+ street tires
Not to mention I can watch my traqmate and see my car exit turn 7 faster in RWD and watch the laps with AWD come and walk it down, and that's because of tires????
Read my earlier statement "drag of undriven front diff +sticky tires
I dont know the most about cars but I'll be damned if someone in another place is going to tell me what's going on with my car when I'm the one driving it.
We do it all the time here that's how we help others figure out problems from across the country
Youre right you cant deny physics but have you ever taken the time to think that with a Rear Engine car that because all the weight is over the back wheels it bogs the rear wheels down a touch (i.e. inertia) compared to a front engine, you want weight transfer to the rear for traction but if you didnt need it would it be helpful? You have not changed the weight over the rear wheels by going rwd only transfering all the power to them and reducing drivetrain loss.
The answer is hell no. Since we all have legs let me liken it to running with a 50 lbs vest on, can you run as fast with it on as not, no the same to a lesser extent applies to the rear engine car with power to the rear wheels, the wheel have more weight on the thereby making the power delivered to them LESS helpful. With there being very little weight and even less under acceleration, as long as the front wheels have traction, they can use power more efficiently, (than that same weight being transfered to the rear wheels) because they have less weight bogging them down (something like a lotus adding 50 hp and a bentley gt adding 50 hp, the lotus gets more out of it because the local hp/weight ratio is affected more).
YOU LOST ME HERE!
Yeah the motor may be making the same amount of power, but that power is LESS efficiently being used by way of physics and maybe moreso by way of robbing hp by drivetrain.
AWD will only be faster in a car that is unproperly set up for RWD(NO LSD,NOT PROPERLY CORNER BALANCED AFTER SWAP)or if the track has poor traction.
Last edited by joetwint; 07-03-2007 at 10:49 PM.
#57
07-03-2007, 10:45 PM
Rear engine goes very well with rwd. Heavy, it seems you live in a different universe from me with different laws of physics.
Drive a PROPERLY converted rwd TT or a GT2 and you will feel just how wonderful the rwd experience can be.
Drive a PROPERLY converted rwd TT or a GT2 and you will feel just how wonderful the rwd experience can be.
#58
07-03-2007, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu
Rear engine goes very well with rwd. Heavy, it seems you live in a different universe from me with different laws of physics.
Drive a PROPERLY converted rwd TT or a GT2 and you will feel just how wonderful the rwd experience can be.
Drive a PROPERLY converted rwd TT or a GT2 and you will feel just how wonderful the rwd experience can be.
No, some of you just choose to use the laws that support your theories and not all of the accompanying ones. I'll keep my AWD, suits me better, I'd rather buy a car BUILT FOR RWD than buy one BUILT for AWD and convert it. A GT2 was designed as a RWD car, a turbo was NOT.
#59
07-04-2007, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by joetwint
It should be faster AWD +Hoosier than it was AWD+ street tires
Originally Posted by joetwint
Read my earlier statement "drag of undriven front diff +sticky tires
Originally Posted by joetwint
We do it all the time here that's how we help others figure out problems from across the country
Originally Posted by joetwint
You have not changed the weight over the rear wheels by going rwd only transfering all the power to them and reducing drivetrain loss.
Originally Posted by joetwint
AWD will only be faster in a car that is unproperly set up for RWD(NO LSD,NOT PROPERLY CORNER BALANCED AFTER SWAP)or if the track has poor traction.
#60
07-04-2007, 12:44 AM
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Thsi is getting Heavy. No Pun intended.
I went RWD and the car felt faster, and the handling was lighter. Got brand new tires the same day.
I recently went back AWD and feel the car is more stable and hasn't lost any performance.
Call me crazy. Cause the above statements don't make sense together.
For now, I'm back in the AWD camp. I have proof that not much torque makes it to the front.
I went RWD and the car felt faster, and the handling was lighter. Got brand new tires the same day.
I recently went back AWD and feel the car is more stable and hasn't lost any performance.
Call me crazy. Cause the above statements don't make sense together.
For now, I'm back in the AWD camp. I have proof that not much torque makes it to the front.