Rear 996 GT3 swaybar for my 996???
#1
Rear 996 GT3 swaybar for my 996???
Guys
I can pick this up for $100 today...should I grab it?
996 GT3 Cup Tubular rear 21MM sway bar w/bushings and links
996 333 701 90 8 position adjustable
The guys selling this has a LOT of GT3 parts for sale and I'll post the link...after I get an answer
I can pick this up for $100 today...should I grab it?
996 GT3 Cup Tubular rear 21MM sway bar w/bushings and links
996 333 701 90 8 position adjustable
The guys selling this has a LOT of GT3 parts for sale and I'll post the link...after I get an answer
#2
TDK
#4
yeah yeah...link posted in new thread Ben. Freakin vulture...
My concern is oversteer with the new sway. Could it be dialed out and if so what would the net change be in handling??
My concern is oversteer with the new sway. Could it be dialed out and if so what would the net change be in handling??
#5
You may also need to upgrade the front sway at the same time, as full soft on the 21mm bar may be too stiff for the smaller OEM front.
Also, rear will simply bolt in - no need for new drop links, but you will definitely need new drop links for the front.
-td
Also here is a good resource for all things racing:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...splay.php?f=65
#7
I am currently running only the rear GT3 sway and it's fine with the front OEM bar. The front OEM M30 sport bar is only .5mm thicker than the OEM stock bar The rear GT3 sway has 4 adjustment holes. Unless you are softening the front shocks, stiffening the front springs and stiffening both the rear springs and shocks, then I seriously doubt you are going to create any major understeer issues. Enclosed is the article from the PCNA as a suspension reference http://www.pca.org/panorama/sample_article_3.html
The OEM front sway bar is not small at 23.1mm; the M30 front sway is 23.6mm. I am not sure of the front GT3 dimensions.
TDK
The OEM front sway bar is not small at 23.1mm; the M30 front sway is 23.6mm. I am not sure of the front GT3 dimensions.
TDK
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#8
ROW M030: front: 23.6, rear: 19.6
OEM: front: 23.1, rear: 18.5
IIRC, as the stiffness is of the sway bar is increased (i..e, diameter), stiffness increases to the 4th power. So increasing even small amounts has a dramatic affect on stiffness. A .5 mm increase (from stock to ROW) creates a ~10% increase in stiffness. And a 1.1 mm increase creates a ~25% increase. The GT3 increase (rear) is 2.3mm, and (front) is 4.6mm over stock. Front =78% stiffer, and rear= 60% stiffer.
[edit] IMO, running an adjustable stiffer rear bar may dial out the understeer inherent in the 911, bringing it closer to neutral.
I am currently running only the rear GT3 sway and it's fine with the front OEM bar.
The front OEM M30 sport bar is only .5mm thicker than the OEM stock bar The rear GT3 sway has 4 adjustment holes. Unless you are softening the front shocks, stiffening the front springs and stiffening both the rear springs and shocks, then I seriously doubt you are going to create any major understeer issues.
-td
Proper setup will "allow" this:
Last edited by himself; 10-06-2008 at 06:08 PM.
#10
GT3 front: 26.7, rear: 20.8
ROW M030: front: 23.6, rear: 19.6
OEM: front: 23.1, rear: 18.5
IIRC, as the stiffness is of the sway bar is increased (i..e, diameter), stiffness increases to the 4th power. So increasing even small amounts has a dramatic affect on stiffness. A .5 mm increase (from stock to ROW) creates a ~10% increase in stiffness. And a 1.1 mm increase creates a ~25% increase. The GT3 increase (rear) is 2.3mm, and (front) is 4.6mm over stock. Front =78% stiffer, and rear= 60% stiffer.
IMO, running a 60% stiffer rear bar without a similar increase in front bar would not be advisable.
When you say that your setup is "fine" are you only driving on the street? Or do you have any track miles on it? Just curious..
If you increase the rear sway and not the front, I think this will induce serious understeer at speed (rather than any oversteer). As the 911 is already dialed in with some understeer, this setup will only exacerbate the situation - although it may seem OK at slow/highway speeds. But at high/track speeds, you will push through every corner.
As I understand it, 996s Cup cars in Grand Am were using the GT3 rear sway with stock front sway setup a few years ago. They had major understeer issues.
-td
ROW M030: front: 23.6, rear: 19.6
OEM: front: 23.1, rear: 18.5
IIRC, as the stiffness is of the sway bar is increased (i..e, diameter), stiffness increases to the 4th power. So increasing even small amounts has a dramatic affect on stiffness. A .5 mm increase (from stock to ROW) creates a ~10% increase in stiffness. And a 1.1 mm increase creates a ~25% increase. The GT3 increase (rear) is 2.3mm, and (front) is 4.6mm over stock. Front =78% stiffer, and rear= 60% stiffer.
IMO, running a 60% stiffer rear bar without a similar increase in front bar would not be advisable.
When you say that your setup is "fine" are you only driving on the street? Or do you have any track miles on it? Just curious..
If you increase the rear sway and not the front, I think this will induce serious understeer at speed (rather than any oversteer). As the 911 is already dialed in with some understeer, this setup will only exacerbate the situation - although it may seem OK at slow/highway speeds. But at high/track speeds, you will push through every corner.
As I understand it, 996s Cup cars in Grand Am were using the GT3 rear sway with stock front sway setup a few years ago. They had major understeer issues.
-td
Again, I am not racing it; If I was, I would be running either the Motons or KWv3, both Gt3 sways, TRG or other adjustable droplinks, Gt3 racing alignment, have the car corner balanced, running on 18's and adjust the bar stiffness and shocks according to the track conditions. There are a million different combinations; some more successful than others.
Unless there are mods to the stock 996 suspension, running both GT3 sway bars alone will definitely induce more underster not less. Increasing the front bar stiffness by 78% and the back just 60% to a car that is already made to understeer will only increase it. The stock car would be better off as is. Stiffer fronts = more understeer, stiffer rears = more oversteer. I do believe the results from the PCA article. This article also has good pointers as well for correcting both under/oversteer. http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/...orrections.htm
TDK
Last edited by The Dark Knight; 10-06-2008 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Correction
#11
Stiffer fronts = more understeer, stiffer rears = more oversteer.
Reducing body roll in the rear (stiffening rear) puts more load on the outside rear tire which tends to induce OVERsteer or dials out UNDERsteer. Softening the front has a similar effect (dials out understeer, or introduces oversteer). Thus, putting on GT3 sways in the rear will create oversteer.
Unless there are mods to the stock 996 suspension, running both GT3 sway bars alone will definitely induce more underster not less. Increasing the front bar stiffness by 78% and the back just 60% to a car that is already made to understeer will only increase it. The stock car would be better off as is.
Now that I've had time to think about it, running the GT3 sway on full stiff with the soft OEM front sway may actually bring the car to neutral.
-td
Last edited by himself; 10-06-2008 at 06:09 PM.
#12
Oh I forgot to mention...
I'm running 225's in the front and 285's in the rear. Sooooooo plug that into the formula...
Tom...correct me if I am wrong that setup creates a little oversteer. I really should have you drive the car and get your opinion. As an added bonus there's beer in the fridge!!
I'm running 225's in the front and 285's in the rear. Sooooooo plug that into the formula...
Tom...correct me if I am wrong that setup creates a little oversteer. I really should have you drive the car and get your opinion. As an added bonus there's beer in the fridge!!
Last edited by MCM97; 10-06-2008 at 06:27 PM.
#13
just make sure this sway bar is for a GT3 street car which will work vs a GT3 cup car which imho is way overkill. 2cents.
BTW: I have to strongly disagree that a proper handling car should lift it's inside front wheel in the air. In my experience that is plain wrong and just looks neat.
BTW: I have to strongly disagree that a proper handling car should lift it's inside front wheel in the air. In my experience that is plain wrong and just looks neat.
#14
I'm running 225's in the front and 285's in the rear [...] that setup creates a little oversteer.
just make sure this sway bar is for a GT3 street car which will work vs a GT3 cup car which imho is way overkill. 2cents.
BTW: I have to strongly disagree that a proper handling car should lift it's inside front wheel in the air. In my experience that is plain wrong and just looks neat.
-td
Last edited by himself; 10-06-2008 at 10:09 PM.