Shifting...
#1
10-09-2008, 04:31 AM
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 566
Rep Power: 44 
Shifting...
Hi guys,
I have been driving stick for like a year but have never been doing any tracking or stuff, but today was playing around with a few friends and driving quite crazy...
Here is the question,
when you guys are going quick, most of us are doing quick gear changing, right? When I was upshifting fast today, it bangs in every gear, I am just wondering would this banging hurt the engine or the transmission? Cuz I really want to keep my car in good shape..so just asking the question...and I don't drive that quick normally, just doing normal,comfort shifts.
THx for all the inputs guys...
Alan
I have been driving stick for like a year but have never been doing any tracking or stuff, but today was playing around with a few friends and driving quite crazy...
Here is the question,
when you guys are going quick, most of us are doing quick gear changing, right? When I was upshifting fast today, it bangs in every gear, I am just wondering would this banging hurt the engine or the transmission? Cuz I really want to keep my car in good shape..so just asking the question...and I don't drive that quick normally, just doing normal,comfort shifts.
THx for all the inputs guys...
Alan
#2
10-09-2008, 05:46 AM
Alan!
When you say "banging" do you mean as in dropping the clutch out after each shift?
If that is what you are doing, I imagine that a lot of that would wear the clutch mecanism prematurely, i.e. stress cracks etc...
Someone once told me that shifting a Porsche should be done in a smooth motion especially with the standard shifter which is not bad, but not the greatest for fast shifts!
When you say "banging" do you mean as in dropping the clutch out after each shift?
If that is what you are doing, I imagine that a lot of that would wear the clutch mecanism prematurely, i.e. stress cracks etc...
Someone once told me that shifting a Porsche should be done in a smooth motion especially with the standard shifter which is not bad, but not the greatest for fast shifts!
#3
10-09-2008, 09:11 AM
you always want to rev match unless going WOT which at that point, you're shifting as fast as possible, but even then in the 1-2 upshift, i don't try to match F1 speeds there.
weird question dude, what are you trying to get out of it?
weird question dude, what are you trying to get out of it?
#4
10-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Also, even if shifting quickly, you should be making two motions. One to bring it out of gear, then a second motion to put it into the next. You can shift very quickly without damage on upshifts, but it is important to not just grab it and slam it. First and second gears, in particular, are fragile on this gearbox. If you slam it around, you'll be doing a rebuild or buying a new one, and they cost a lot ($6500, I think?).
What I do, especially when I am trying to shift quickly, is use just three fingers on the gear shift. If it takes more strength than that, you are doing something wrong.
What I do, especially when I am trying to shift quickly, is use just three fingers on the gear shift. If it takes more strength than that, you are doing something wrong.
#5
10-09-2008, 09:42 AM
unless we see what the heck this guy is doing while shifting, this is the same thing as trying to judge car stereo quality via the written word.
#6
10-09-2008, 10:40 AM
Many people fall into two bad habits on the street when shifting. First, Hollywood has taught everyone that it looks cool to always leave your right hand on the shift ****. Wrong! You may as well tie your hand behind your back as leave it on the shift ****. Your hand belongs on the steering wheel--always. When you need to shift--shift, and get your hand back on the wheel. Don't even rest it on the shifter for a few seconds a head of time to "get ready." Every time your hand leaves the steering wheel you've given up 50% of the tactile feedback you have from your hands, and 50% of your capability to control the car. If you're racing with other cars around you, you never know when you may get tapped. Even when racing alone, mechanical failure may cause handling trouble. You'll want both hands on the wheel when that happens.
The second bad habit some people have is shifting with excessive force. Too tight a grip, and slamming from one gear to another will actually slow your shifting down, and cause excessive mechanical wear. Proper shifting uses an open palm grip on the top of the shift ****, and a gentle but fast guide from one gear to another. We repeat---all shifting is properly done with the hand open and cupped over the top of the ****, not wrapped around it like a fighter plane control stick.
To shift from the top of the H to the bottom, start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. Place the palm of the hand over the top of the shift ****. Using the underside of your fingers and your palm against the ****, use a smooth straight-line motion to guide the lever to the next gear. Assuming the shift lever has a fairly short travel, the action involves your wrist for the majority of the movement. Do not attempt to slam it or force it faster than it wants to go. If you are locking your wrist and moving your whole arm at the shoulder, you are using too much force.
To shift from the bottom of the H to the top, again start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. This time when you place the hand over the shift ****, the emphasis of contact is on the heel of the palm. Start with the wrist slightly bent up. Push the lever using the palm heel in a straight line using your wrist to extend the position of the palm heel while following through with a gentle push of the arm. This shift is more arm motion than wrist.
When shifting across the H such as between 2nd and 3rd gears, do not try to make a conscious jog in your hand movements. The linkage needs very little input to make the diagonal path across neutral. Your shift should almost look like a straight diagonal line. Making a distinctive zig zag through neutral is strong-arming the shifter and will slow the shift down.
Using smooth, soft control of the lever does not imply doing it slowly. A gentle force of the lever will allow the shift linkage to move freely through its natural motions. If you strong-arm the motion you will end up forcing the linkage through lines that have more resistance. This will slow the shifting down. Use as much wrist movement as possible in place of moving the whole arm.
Some of you may be tempted to learn the techniques of "speed shifting"--shifting without using the clutch--in the interest of saving time. Many schools and professional racers have shown over and over that there is no speed or lap time advantage to this, and it carries a much higher risk of gear box damage.
The second bad habit some people have is shifting with excessive force. Too tight a grip, and slamming from one gear to another will actually slow your shifting down, and cause excessive mechanical wear. Proper shifting uses an open palm grip on the top of the shift ****, and a gentle but fast guide from one gear to another. We repeat---all shifting is properly done with the hand open and cupped over the top of the ****, not wrapped around it like a fighter plane control stick.
To shift from the top of the H to the bottom, start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. Place the palm of the hand over the top of the shift ****. Using the underside of your fingers and your palm against the ****, use a smooth straight-line motion to guide the lever to the next gear. Assuming the shift lever has a fairly short travel, the action involves your wrist for the majority of the movement. Do not attempt to slam it or force it faster than it wants to go. If you are locking your wrist and moving your whole arm at the shoulder, you are using too much force.
To shift from the bottom of the H to the top, again start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. This time when you place the hand over the shift ****, the emphasis of contact is on the heel of the palm. Start with the wrist slightly bent up. Push the lever using the palm heel in a straight line using your wrist to extend the position of the palm heel while following through with a gentle push of the arm. This shift is more arm motion than wrist.
When shifting across the H such as between 2nd and 3rd gears, do not try to make a conscious jog in your hand movements. The linkage needs very little input to make the diagonal path across neutral. Your shift should almost look like a straight diagonal line. Making a distinctive zig zag through neutral is strong-arming the shifter and will slow the shift down.
Using smooth, soft control of the lever does not imply doing it slowly. A gentle force of the lever will allow the shift linkage to move freely through its natural motions. If you strong-arm the motion you will end up forcing the linkage through lines that have more resistance. This will slow the shifting down. Use as much wrist movement as possible in place of moving the whole arm.
Some of you may be tempted to learn the techniques of "speed shifting"--shifting without using the clutch--in the interest of saving time. Many schools and professional racers have shown over and over that there is no speed or lap time advantage to this, and it carries a much higher risk of gear box damage.
#7
10-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Many people fall into two bad habits on the street when shifting. First, Hollywood has taught everyone that it looks cool to always leave your right hand on the shift ****. Wrong! You may as well tie your hand behind your back as leave it on the shift ****. Your hand belongs on the steering wheel--always. When you need to shift--shift, and get your hand back on the wheel. Don't even rest it on the shifter for a few seconds a head of time to "get ready." Every time your hand leaves the steering wheel you've given up 50% of the tactile feedback you have from your hands, and 50% of your capability to control the car. If you're racing with other cars around you, you never know when you may get tapped. Even when racing alone, mechanical failure may cause handling trouble. You'll want both hands on the wheel when that happens.
The second bad habit some people have is shifting with excessive force. Too tight a grip, and slamming from one gear to another will actually slow your shifting down, and cause excessive mechanical wear. Proper shifting uses an open palm grip on the top of the shift ****, and a gentle but fast guide from one gear to another. We repeat---all shifting is properly done with the hand open and cupped over the top of the ****, not wrapped around it like a fighter plane control stick.
To shift from the top of the H to the bottom, start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. Place the palm of the hand over the top of the shift ****. Using the underside of your fingers and your palm against the ****, use a smooth straight-line motion to guide the lever to the next gear. Assuming the shift lever has a fairly short travel, the action involves your wrist for the majority of the movement. Do not attempt to slam it or force it faster than it wants to go. If you are locking your wrist and moving your whole arm at the shoulder, you are using too much force.
To shift from the bottom of the H to the top, again start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. This time when you place the hand over the shift ****, the emphasis of contact is on the heel of the palm. Start with the wrist slightly bent up. Push the lever using the palm heel in a straight line using your wrist to extend the position of the palm heel while following through with a gentle push of the arm. This shift is more arm motion than wrist.
When shifting across the H such as between 2nd and 3rd gears, do not try to make a conscious jog in your hand movements. The linkage needs very little input to make the diagonal path across neutral. Your shift should almost look like a straight diagonal line. Making a distinctive zig zag through neutral is strong-arming the shifter and will slow the shift down.
Using smooth, soft control of the lever does not imply doing it slowly. A gentle force of the lever will allow the shift linkage to move freely through its natural motions. If you strong-arm the motion you will end up forcing the linkage through lines that have more resistance. This will slow the shifting down. Use as much wrist movement as possible in place of moving the whole arm.
Some of you may be tempted to learn the techniques of "speed shifting"--shifting without using the clutch--in the interest of saving time. Many schools and professional racers have shown over and over that there is no speed or lap time advantage to this, and it carries a much higher risk of gear box damage.
The second bad habit some people have is shifting with excessive force. Too tight a grip, and slamming from one gear to another will actually slow your shifting down, and cause excessive mechanical wear. Proper shifting uses an open palm grip on the top of the shift ****, and a gentle but fast guide from one gear to another. We repeat---all shifting is properly done with the hand open and cupped over the top of the ****, not wrapped around it like a fighter plane control stick.
To shift from the top of the H to the bottom, start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. Place the palm of the hand over the top of the shift ****. Using the underside of your fingers and your palm against the ****, use a smooth straight-line motion to guide the lever to the next gear. Assuming the shift lever has a fairly short travel, the action involves your wrist for the majority of the movement. Do not attempt to slam it or force it faster than it wants to go. If you are locking your wrist and moving your whole arm at the shoulder, you are using too much force.
To shift from the bottom of the H to the top, again start by forming a cup with your palm and fingers. This time when you place the hand over the shift ****, the emphasis of contact is on the heel of the palm. Start with the wrist slightly bent up. Push the lever using the palm heel in a straight line using your wrist to extend the position of the palm heel while following through with a gentle push of the arm. This shift is more arm motion than wrist.
When shifting across the H such as between 2nd and 3rd gears, do not try to make a conscious jog in your hand movements. The linkage needs very little input to make the diagonal path across neutral. Your shift should almost look like a straight diagonal line. Making a distinctive zig zag through neutral is strong-arming the shifter and will slow the shift down.
Using smooth, soft control of the lever does not imply doing it slowly. A gentle force of the lever will allow the shift linkage to move freely through its natural motions. If you strong-arm the motion you will end up forcing the linkage through lines that have more resistance. This will slow the shifting down. Use as much wrist movement as possible in place of moving the whole arm.
Some of you may be tempted to learn the techniques of "speed shifting"--shifting without using the clutch--in the interest of saving time. Many schools and professional racers have shown over and over that there is no speed or lap time advantage to this, and it carries a much higher risk of gear box damage.
seriously, i'm not as regimented as our beloved redridge, but for someone that's clueless, follow his orders.
myself... i rarely have two hands on the wheel and on the 1-2 shift, i do hold it f-16 fighter style, but vary it depending on 5-6, 2-3 etc.
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#8
10-09-2008, 12:13 PM
militarrrry maaaaaang.... and while you cup it, turn your head to the left, not right and cough
seriously, i'm not as regimented as our beloved redridge, but for someone that's clueless, follow his orders.
myself... i rarely have two hands on the wheel and on the 1-2 shift, i do hold it f-16 fighter style, but vary it depending on 5-6, 2-3 etc.
seriously, i'm not as regimented as our beloved redridge, but for someone that's clueless, follow his orders.
myself... i rarely have two hands on the wheel and on the 1-2 shift, i do hold it f-16 fighter style, but vary it depending on 5-6, 2-3 etc.
I hear you Ben, Im getting more **** as I get older... since Ive been tracking more lately...check it.http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving
#9
10-09-2008, 01:50 PM
it's all Good man you're doling out good advice - it's definitely not good to rest your hand on the shifter regardless of whether the right hand is on the steering wheel or some place else
#10
10-09-2008, 03:51 PM
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 566
Rep Power: 44 Alan!
When you say "banging" do you mean as in dropping the clutch out after each shift?
If that is what you are doing, I imagine that a lot of that would wear the clutch mecanism prematurely, i.e. stress cracks etc...
Someone once told me that shifting a Porsche should be done in a smooth motion especially with the standard shifter which is not bad, but not the greatest for fast shifts!
When you say "banging" do you mean as in dropping the clutch out after each shift?
If that is what you are doing, I imagine that a lot of that would wear the clutch mecanism prematurely, i.e. stress cracks etc...
Someone once told me that shifting a Porsche should be done in a smooth motion especially with the standard shifter which is not bad, but not the greatest for fast shifts!
I know it's hard for you guys to understand me through words, yes Ben, I was at WOT when shifting that day.. And yes I was trying to shift quick so I let the clutch go quickly after I shifted to 2nd gear... And I guess the rev was abit high for 2nd gear at that speed so that the rev didn't match costing the bang sound.. So I just didn't know if this would hurt the clutch or the tranny so I started this thread.
If this would really hurt the tranny or the clutch, how do you guys do quick shift without hurting anything and so smooth?
Thank you so much guys!!!!
Alan
#11
10-09-2008, 03:52 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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If you have enough time to move your hand from the shifter the wheel to the shifter for the first 2 shifts, you have a very slow car.
#14
10-09-2008, 06:16 PM
Sounds like you may also be dropping the clutch to fast. I had this problem when I got on the track w/ the 996 the first time. To shift fast, be smooth. It doesn't take any different motion or technique than your normal shifts - just a slightly quicker pace. Redridge has it right. Find someone who has good track experience and watch their hands and feet on a lap. You will learn a lot from that. You won't see jerky motions. Everything is smooth and orchestrated.
