My M5 is perfect now, but had the unfortunate curse of being involved in two accidents (neither my fault, but that's scant comfort when some idiot hits your baby).

First time, red light runner smacks my entire right side. 26k damage and insurance wouldn't budge on calling it a total. Everything remotely possible was replaced, not repaired, including the entire right side unibody piece. This was done at a dealer which had their own attached body shop. Seemed to be good as new after out of the shop, but I knew the resale value would never be recovered, so got some cash out of the idiot's insurance company for diminished value.

I added a bunch of Dinan mods and just figured I'd keep the car forever until I drove it into the ground. 6 months later though, second idiot which I can't really blame too much jumped in front of me on Hwy 17 to Santa Cruz.

Yep, a deer, and not just some tiny one but the freaking alpha male. Smacked that sucker dead on going 60-65 by the time I'd slowed down - literally time slowed and I saw that deer get punted a good 100 feet up the highway as I came to a screeching halt on ABS. I swear the deer was still alive, but we'll never know because 10-15 idiots in cars behind me ignored me pulled over in left lane blocking traffic, and just zoomed into right hand lane and passed me. Smacking that poor deer again and again. After awhile, there wasn't a deer, just chunks of red. The first cop that showed up couldn't figure out what I hit until he shone his lights a couple hundred yards up the road.

Anyway, this is all to say I had two major accidents and body/suspension work done. 26k job first one, and 12k for the deer hit. Supposedly no motor or frame bent in either one, but this is definitely not a car I'd ever buy or advise anyone to buy no matter how good the deal. So again, my theory of driving it into the ground.

I always thought I'd just keep that plus my p-car, but I love my p-car so much, I can't think of a reason to keep it, so just for kicks I went to a BMW dealer to see what ridiculous low price they'd quote me given what I assume an instant research on the car would show as two major accidents.

They quoted me about $5k ABOVE the best Kelly blue book price I thought I'd get for a dealer trade. I was sorta stunned and didn't say anything and left saying I'd think it over. So today for the very first time, I paid the 29.99 and went to carfax.com and ordered a vehicle history on my own car.

Since I'm the one and only original owner, I damned well know exactly what that report ought to say - two major accidents. It came back as clean bill of health, zero problems, and even the big bold type saying if I bought this car and the info was wrong, carfax would buy that car back from me.

This shocks me quite a bit. I figure if someone got work done on their car through some shady private shop, maybe there'd be no record, but not only did I get both major work done at a dealer bodyshop, but I obeyed all DMV regulations and filed the accident reports, the one required if any damage exceeeded over $500, etc. Not to mention the insurance papers - first time with the other insurance company and second time with my own as I used comprehensive.

Is carfax just a POS service? Knowing what I know now, there's no way I'm going to buy a private party purchase based on carfax telling me everything is clean on that car.

 

So are you going to make them aware of their oversight?

 

That would be unethical and I'd never do it, but a totally good way to unload the car on carfax. Find some accomplice - private party sell to that person with a very good mint condition sale price, then have that person use the buyback guarantee to unload the car to carfax.

But given my personal feelings about dealer gouging, I think what I'll do is just go back to that dealer, keep my mouth shut about things they don't ask, and just unload it for the 5k above avg condition w/ body damage blue book price that was all I thought I'd get.

Dealers have gouged me above MSRP plenty of times, so I guess I can live with this on my conscience.

 

wouldn't in the end the person that got "gouged" be the one who eventually buys it from the dealer?

 

Can you tell me how you got any money out of the insurance company for "diminished value"? I've tried talking to the transporter's insurance company about paying $2k or so because half of my car will need to be repainted, but they said there isn't a such a thing as diminished value as long as the car gets fixed

Also, CARFAX won't tell you much unless the insurance company brands the title, ie salvage or rebuildable. I purchased several cars from insurance auction yards that have been stripped to the frame and still have a CLEAN CARFAX title

 

Maybe a quick call to carfax AFTER the dealer takes possession of the car might be in order.

 

If a future owner has your vehicle and finds major damage had occured(such as frame), and was not notified by you or his seller, he may have DMV track it back to you! This would be bad! You are relieved of any obligation as long as you tell your buyer. I had a similar experience with 2 vehicles that failed to surface on carfax: #1, I told the trade-in dealer and he said as long as it was under $10K he didn't care; #2, the dealer ran the carfax after being told, found nothing, and he didn't care. It would probably be in your best interest to tell any parties only to cover your own but. I don't think you want to find out the hard way you made the wrong choice. You could opt to run it into the ground, or hold it until the diminshed value is negligeable to the interested party. FWIW

 

FWIW again, I was involved in another incident where I was a "middle" owner and a tracking took place. Fortunately I was excused as I was unaware of damage caused by the previous owner. The initial party was liable.
FWIW again, I had a friend purchase such a vehicle, found out, and the dealer had to take back the vehicle and in turn go after the initial party. Tread carfaxfully!

 

You will be required to sign a statement that the vehicle has never been in an accident or had frame damage. The statement includes exclusions for anything other than minor dents or minor paint repairs. If you sign that waiver, and someone later tracks you down as dishonest, you probably could be held liable. The chances of ever having a problem are slim, but if you do it might not be pretty.

 

In a nutshell.

 

I know of a 02 turbo that spent 6+ months in the shop after running into a tree, repair bill was over $70K. Also know of a 03 Range Rover that ran over a fallen light pole resulting in significant damage. Both cars came up clean on Carfax.

 

Unless the dealer is far below the ethics curve of most dealers, it's not allowed by BMWNA to CPO a car that's had any significant bodywork, and before a car can be given the CPO certification it has to go through a close inspection to determine this. Unless the dealer just shuffles off this CPO requirement and rubber stamps the process (a possibility I grant you), a pre-CPO inspection ought to be able to spot the prior accident marks easily once it's up on a rack.

So the person getting screwed would be whatever wholesaler that they unload the car to with the disclosure of prior accident damage (unless they rubber stamp that too, which again I can beleive). Or the dealer can try and sell it off their lot as a non-CPO car with disclosure (which again I grant they might not do). However, I can live with this scenario as I choose not to limit myself due to every conceivable action or chain of evil that could be done by someone else due to actions I am reasonably assured should not happen unless they themselves break the chain of ethics. Ok - it's the butterfly effect and I definitely started the first flaps, but I can live with it.

Still haven't 100% decided - could either keep car and drive it into ground as planned, or unload it with the admission I'll probably never do the Costco runs I always think just might happen and therefore would be better than my p-car. Am in the process of picking out a hauling car, Cayenne, X5, etc., anyways - so I'm currently 85% sold on dumping the car now.

And yes, after dumping it, I would definitely contact carfax and inform them of the error of their ways. Butterfly effect again is that this might not do anything but at least I'd have done it; whatever happens after that I can live with too.

 

Not that I don't agree with you totally in sentiment and think that's how the law ought to be, in point of fact it's not. At least in the state of California. (stating again the huge grain of salt that I hold a JD but never took the bar, nor have ever practiced law other than to defend myself a few times in court, and make no claims as to how it is in your state)

In a private party sale, california is a caveat emptor, or buyer beware, state. As long as no provable fraud is committed, it's don't ask, don't tell and buyer beware. If I sell a vehicle to another individual or business, and I do not inform or provide disclosure as to the state of the vehicle, I am in zero trouble whether some time later the buyer discovers otherwise. In fact, in California there is zero obligation for the seller of a previously owned good to provide disclosure. Used cars fall into this category of previously owned good - homes on the other hand do not - hence the requirement of disclosure there.

If I make false statements or claims to condition, functionality, or other measurable attributes that are later provable in my mind to have been false at the time of utterance, AND that disparity in state can be proved by the plaintiff to have been done with a motive towards mischief, malice, or gain, then yes - I have committed fraud and a) must refund the purchase price, b) additional costs incurred by the buyer considered reasonable by the court, c) may be liable to a fine, and d) may be liable to some period of incarceration - all depending on the total dollar value involved as there is a distinction between misdemeanor fraud and felony fraud.

Again, I totally agree with you this is how it ought to be everywhere - but sadly it's not in most states. To make things worse, even if I made all the verbal statements of false claims I wanted to get someone to buy something, there's no real case unless the buyer holds some provable evidence such as written statement or admissibile recording.

The reverse of this is just because you verbally tell a dealer a disclosure on your car as you indicated in your example, this means nothing if the dealer simply denies any disclosure from you was provided.

 

Completely agree as to the outlined consequences given this scenario (easiest shut and case in the world given written evidence), but while I've not had that many sales to dealers, I've sold back two BMWs in the last 5-6 years to BMW dealers and I never had to sign any kind of declaration like this for either one.

 

No idea what the law in Utah is like, so it might be true that state does not legally recognize the compensation of diminished value. But in california it is. However, even in California where it's possible, it's still hellishly hard to get an insurance company, whether your own or the other guys if they were at fault, to cough up diminished value payment. Repeat - hellishly hard even if you are totally in the right and have concrete proof to back it up.

In my case, I knew some things going in that made my likelyhood to recover diminished value likely:
a) there's a reason why people always say that to get an insurance company to treat you seriously, get a lawyer.
b) the corrolary to the above is that if you want them to really take notice, get a noted law firm, not just an independent lawyer
c) I had both. A couple good friends who I went to law school with went on to become litigation heavy weights at Latham Watkins. So they were more than happy to personally pro bono all my work, and use the firm name in all dealings with the insurance company.
d) there was no question to fault - lots of independent traffic witnesses and police ruled the person as a red light runner and it was a shut and closed case of 100% other party fault. If your case has any percent division to fault, which california allows for any percentage division - e.g. 95% other party, 5% your fault, you can kiss diminished value payment good bye.
e) I was willing to spend whatever time and effort as for various reasons I had a LOT of free time on my hands at that juncture

It was also a bit easier in that my 01 M5 was all of 3 months old when it got whacked, so establishing non-damaged fair market valule was pretty easy. What my litigation shark lawyer friends had me do (I'm the gentle, useful to society transactional law type) was get multiple, independent estimates to current worth on my vehicle after it was all fixed up while all the letters were flying back and forth setting the stage for additional payment once my car was fixed.

So after my car got fixed the way I wanted it done, I went to some dealers, showed them my car and explained the damage done with the dealer-autobody shop list of items fixed, and asked what their fair trade in value would be. Of course, a few said forget it they wouldn't even take the trade, and the rest really low balled me. A couple refused to help with written trade in values even when given explanation why I was doing this, but the rest provided written quotes once I really went the wheedling route, including in a couple to get letters to the dealer general manager and owners involved with my legal firm's stationary. I don't want to make this sound short and easy - some dealers were resistant (other than the two that just right out said forget it), and it literally took weeks to get written quotes from at least four parties, which is what my lawyers said would be a fairly non-disputable independent judgement of market value.

So we quoted all the responses, including the no trade rebuttals, and used the post-fix trade in value as the average base for diminished value. To establish the ceiling on normal market price for a non-diminished value vehicle, we went out and got two dealers to provide written trade in quotes for mint condition, 3 month old M5s with my then current mileage, and found low milage same year returns sitting on dealer lots. My firm had flunkeys go down as mystery shoppers and got quotes in writing of the sale price. So this established the ceiling in another indirect way.

So, regular FMV minus diminished trade in vaue equaled the rough diminished value desired. It came out to something like 12k, but by the time another couple months went by and the best brutal negotiating my lawyers could do, the insurance company (AAA) finally made an offer I could live with, $7k in diminished value payment.

However, very important to note that this payment was NOT quoted as a diminished value payment. I had already negotiated under the threat of nuisance lawsuits long before this came around that my car was to be repaired with true replacements rather than any fixing, no matter how small the damage. For example, two wheels had scratches and some pit chunks - but my lawyers argued the shadow chrome finish on the wheels could not be duplicated to factory finish, so I ended up getting two brand new wheels. Anyway, my negotiated diminished value payment which we all knew and referred to as such was finally paid out as an "adjustment" to the out of pocket expenses incurred by me while being without my car. (this on top of the reimbursement for the rental car of my choice they'd already provided).

So I suppose in reality, I technically didn't get a "diminished value" payment either.

So hate to say it, but if you want to get your 2k or so, first thing is to get a lawyer, which may pretty much eat up whatever cost you want to recover unless you can get freebie lawyers like I did. Which is the real crux of the situation - in general, even when you are in the right, the legal costs will be more than what you'll probably recover unless you have some friends and family connection.