I don't think Mike ever says his products are better. I think he is simply stating that RUF's quality, performance, and reliability can be matched...and you don't need the close forged relation ship between Porsche and RUF to do the correct data analysis and evaluation of performance products.

 

You are maybe right, he never said it, but that's what I understood from Mike's post, apologies if I misread.. I am certainly not bashing Mike, I have great admiration for some of his work.

My questions were addressing exactly those points, quality, perofrmance (like for like) and reliability. How difficult do we really think would it be for RUF to turn up the boost a notch and get another 100HP? There are other restrictions to do that, one of them is warranty, the other is reliability.

Just as an FYI, despite of the myth, there is no relationship whatsoever between Porsche and RUF other than supplier/customer....like so many others.

 

All boost is 100% controlled by ECU with no piggybacks, mechanical boost controllers, etc. All programming is done by GIAC to our specifications, and if the car came equipped with Sport Chrono/overboost, that function remains intact, too.


No, we do not, and that it where the price difference is most likely accounted for between most tuners and RUF. However that is a business model decision, not an inherent comment on quality. As you can see strictly by the sales numbers of RUF vs ROW tuners, most Porsche owners do not perceive the value of an engine warranty being written into their modification costs.

Besides the proximity the Germany office, I am not sure what the point here is?

We do not have RUF’s boost specs, so cannot comment here.

That was just further proof of power being made. We are not only throwing around dyno numbers. Acceleration numbers at the drag strip back up our dyno numbers.

However, road course usage in the hands of a skilled and aggressive driver is absolutely valid testing for engine and turbo reliability, and we have done that as stated in the post before.

You are always going to have skeptics. It's part of the game, and it's also why we show up for work everyday.

Again, we are not questioning RUF’s competence or quality, I am just making a comment on whether or not their published numbers are conservative or accurate. We have tested their products first hand, so we are qualified to answer.

 

I think we should be grateful to have a plethora of options on the table as to tuning products, and the more competition that exists the more we all benefit. RUF no doubt makes thoroughly tested packages with warranty support, which sets them in a different category than many others. Honestly, I am not sure that the RUF customers are necessarily going to cross shop tuners anyway.

That being said, I personally have had a very good experience using AWE as a tuner, not only because their hardware is of excellent construction, but because they are very accessible in phone support, very keen on offering sound advice, do not "over-sell" products that may not offer any tangible benefit, and do not make false and unsubstantiated claims on their goods.

I have tested the AWE stage II package in a hot climate, in bumper to bumper traffic, in lap after lap of 165mph track work (120 deg track temps), in 60-130mph shoot outs, and the car is so even tempered that my wife can take the car for a hair appointment immediately afterwards. There is so much usable power that I often find myself trying to upshift out of 6th gear into an imaginary 7th gear because it pulls so hard that I think I am still in 4th. I simply cannot imagine how it could get any better, and I am surprised daily that there has never been any loss of drivability.

 

Thanks to Mike from AWE very much for the thorough explanation regarding this topic. But my thought comes down to these two things, HP#/Acceleration# and Reliability. As for 997Turbo we cannot determine these two things as of yet since no official package is available in the US yet. But we can look back at the 996 Turbo where a RUF 550 or 590 package could hang or beat a EVO700 equipped car(don't quote me on this, I just remember reading this like 2 years ago, so can someone confirm this as well please) and HP#s wise seems either RUF underestimates their power or EVO overestimates their's. Either way, as a customer currently looking for Turbo Upgrades what options am I looking at? AWE and EVO are in their final testing stage of the Kit but RUF already released it's kit, my question for the vendors would be am I just paying 50 large for the RUF name and pride? Or are they really such superior tuning company above all?

 

I think I'm gonna pull the trigger on a Ruf 550 upgrade next year...I can't resist. Power, reliability and the Ruf name.

 

My pleasure.


This I really need to see. I don't ever recall that being the case.

I recall multiple G.I.A.C. K24 cars with just exhaust and GT2 intercoolers dynoing higher then Ruf cars with the same turbos, along with their openend intake tubes. Talk to KPV about that one...

Let me clarify. Our kit is done. The only reason we have not shipped kits yet is due to turbo availability.

We are in the midst of a major blowoff by Borg Warner. If an OEM places a big order for turbos, the aftermarket orders get put on the backburner. We ran into this problem two years ago. For months we could not get turbos for any of our VW, Audi, or Porsche applications.

Once turbos arrive, we ship. All of the components and software are ready and waiting.

Thanks.

 

550hp is SO four years ago....

Didn't you know that 700 is the new 550?

I can't wait until 1200 is the new 700.

 

Mike can you give me a ball park of how much the entire 700hp kit will cost? (Header, Exhaust, Program, Turbo etc.) And if I am "in a rush" could i send you my stock turbos and get it modified? and purchase another set of stock turbos before i get rid of the car. Thanks alot sir in advance!

 

 

How about protomotive?

 

Keep in mind that these tuned TT's have already proven to be as fast as (actually faster than) the new GT2 in head to head 0-300kph testing in Germany. After lowering and a more aggressive alignment, I found almost no reason to drive my Gt3 anymore, and subsequently sold it. The stage II TT is a real sleeper when compared to the new Gt2.

<bench race mode on>Yes, the Gt2 may be faster on the Nring in the hands of WR or HVS, but I would bet a pretty penny that a tuned TT with alignment and suspension with WR at the helm could set some record paced laps<bench race mode off>

 

Driven other modded 911's (not AWE) and always had some glitchy clutch, poor idle, hesitation or something. Never with my Ruf. Clutch is perfect, very smooth and extremely fast.

After my research, I sincerely believe that Ruf spends more r&d time than most. Further, their reputation is solid. That means everything to me.

The point that I disagree with most is resale. Modified cars get killed on resale. You never get everything back, but the Ruf names carries more weight than any other name out there. Nothing else even comes close.

I would suggest you call Ruf and talk with Hans or Wayne. These guys have been in the Porsche/Ruf business for a long time. The are honest and sincere and stand behind everything they do.

 

Saying that RUF products are very good does not mean AWE's aren't.

Mike invited comments on his post, I am tyring to understand/clarify what differences there are probably.

While having or not warranty is a personal decision by the customer, one cannot disqualify a premium based on that alone. A broken engine will be much more expensive than the price differential between the 2 kits, what is usually worse are other small things that go wrong and the time wasted with the car in the workshop.

As I said earlier in my post, acceleration alone is not what makes RUF packages good, it is the balance of that with longevity, if someone can claim proven record on tuned engines with reliability, they are certainly on top of the list, experience comes with a price too. (and this has nothing to do with AWE, I am not comparing)

Also as I mentioned one needs to look at boost levels vs performance, there is nothing simpler than to increase boost a notch and get another 50-100HP, it does not take a great tuner to do it. There are other restrictions, namely longevity.

Mike you said however that you had tested so thoroughly RUF cars yet you don't know at what boost level they are delivering their power? Is there any reason why you might think that at the same boost levels your engines go faster?

I don't think RUF underrate their HP at all, I just think they are realistic. The RT12 with manual gearbox for instance does the quartermile in 134mph with any daily driver on board and street tires and pump fuel, it has 650HP.

The reason I mentioned KKK R&D head office being next door to RUF is because you mentioned working with Borg Warner on your turbos, they did too.

It was really not my intention to do a comparison and I was not the one who started it, and I still maintain that your products seem very good based on the experiences of customers ( I have not had first hand experience with them), but one must note the differences in the packages.

Eclou, I value your tests a lot and appreciate the data you provide and enjoy it, but please bear in mind that the sort of testing that you have done does not prove longevity at all. The GT3 was tested at top speed for 6000 miles non-stop but they still need to be re-opened after a very limited number of racing hours.

AND I am not a RUF fan! They are a bit overpriced IMO, but I cannot deny their experience, quality and customer service. There are faster cars out there for sure.

 

This discussion seems to be great contribution to the forum since not many people can clearly explain why RUF's HP#s are always lower than competitive tuners. Many believe durability of engine comes in account. All comes down to one question, AWE, EVO, Protomotive, are you guys' 700+hp kit faster than RUF's 600hp kit? Considering most of the components of the kit is the same (Modified VTG, Exhaust, ECU). If your 700+hp kit is not faster then why is it rated 100+hp more than the RUF? From a customer's point of view, I'd really like to understand thoroughly before I make a decision on who to go with in terms of my mods. Thank you guys very much in advance!